Perkins 4.108 making oil

[Argyle38]

Hey thanks for the reply, and I'm glad you found the fix. Like I said, I actually found this thread last August when my problem first occurred. Like yours, it seems to be intermittent, but I'm pretty convinced it's a failing seal in the injector pump at this point. Your experience confirms that even more.

I'm at Cumberland Island Georgia right now and our next stop will be Brunswick, about 20 miles north. I'd like to hold off on the pump refit until we're up in Deltaville Virginia, where I'm planning on a haul out, bottom paint, mast stuff, etc. Trans-Atlantic Diesels is right around the corner from there too so I can take the removed pump right to them and not have to wait on shipping. That's a long way north from here, but hopefully it will hold with only a few oil changes for a while longer.

Did you do the reinstall yourself? I've read getting the timing right can be tricky. When the head was off, I made a mark on the crank pulley for the #1 cylinder TDC location. I've heard that might help to keep things aligned.

[Mike OReilly]

Yes, ours was frustratingly intermittent -- those are always the worst kinds of problems. I think I mentioned that I believe it had something to do with hitting the right (or wrong) RPM. I also believe there was a correlation to reverse throttle ... but there were only speculations on my part. I never confirmed either.

We hired a mechanic to do both the (un)install work. I assisted, but I felt this was above my skill level. I'd probably attempt it now.

Timing is key. In fact our mechanic failed to get this right at first, and it took some effort (and more time) realigning the pump to get it working smoothly. The key is to reinstall it in the exact alignment (assuming it was aligned properly to begin with). Make some marks on the pump so it goes back exactly the same way is important.

This, btw, is how we ended up contorting some of our high pressure lines. These lines probably hadn't moved in 30 years, so it caused a bunch of micro-cracks that were difficult to find. We ended up spending a huge amount of time chasing leaks and replacing a lot of lines.

[marcjsmith]

Argyle, on my 4108. I had a leaking injector pump, but it was leaking from the throttle shaft seals.


my pump had no indexing marks on it. so if you decide to do the job youself. (its not that formidable) make sure you make an index mark on the pump flange and the block. that way you get your pump timing back to where it needs to be.


the biggest part of the job was getting the heat exchanger/manifold out of the way, which mean that return fuel line had to come off. and the nut on the in board side of the pump was a bugger


not my vids, but two that helped give me confidence to do the job myself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyMsX8McAm8&t=83s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfkZVFNkCjg&t=11s

the pump rebuild took about an hour. but it was several hours to get the pump off. and several hours to put the pump back on. 90% of which was screwing around with the HE/Manifold


while I had the HE off I did replace all the hoses and cleaned and repainted all the bits.

[patagonik]

Hello, first of all check the glow plug that perkins usually bring in the air intake mouth.
Because if it were the injector pump shaft seal or the feed pump diaphragm, the oil level would always rise!
When the glow plug fails, fuel drips into the intake and raises the height of the oil in the crankcase.
Greetings from Patagonia Argentina
Sergio
Diesel injection specialist

[Capt Gill]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Yes, ours was frustratingly intermittent -- those are always the worst kinds of problems. I think I mentioned that I believe it had something to do with hitting the right (or wrong) RPM. I also believe there was a correlation to reverse throttle ... but there were only speculations on my part. I never confirmed either.

We hired a mechanic to do both the (un)install work. I assisted, but I felt this was above my skill level. I'd probably attempt it now.
Timing is key. In fact our mechanic failed to get this right at first, and it took some effort (and more time) realigning the pump to get it working smoothly. The key is to reinstall it in the exact alignment (assuming it was aligned properly to begin with). Make some marks on the pump so it goes back exactly the same way is important.

The problem may appear intermittent, however, in my case, it was the symptom being intermittent, i.e., the symptom was a huge plume of dark gray exhaust smoke, engine stumbling then speeding up, unable to stop with kill switch; I had to cap the air intake which stopped the engine readily. After doing some cursory checks the engine was restarted and ran well - for a while - then a repeat of the same, that's the intermittent part. The PROBLEM is diesel fuel getting into the crankcase which, after a while reaches the level of the crankshaft throwing the oil/fuel everywhere including the c/case breather dumping the mixture into the air intake which creates that huge plume of smoke (the symptom), so depending on how severe the internal fuel leak will dictate the freq. of the symptom.
Ok, I realize I'm going on a bit here and you may want to take the "shotgun" approach as has been suggested earlier in this thread, however, if you want to pinpoint the problem by doing a proper diagnoses read on.
Continuing from my previous post: How is fuel getting into the crankcase?
Three possibilities and one I'm still researching, in order of likelihood 1) lift pump 2)lip seal on the mounting side of the HP pump 3) injectors and the one I need to research is blockage of the HP pump return line.
I've eliminated the lift pump as a cause by removing it and reattaching the fuel lines then manually stroking it many times - no leakage, but I found about 1/4 litre of fuel in the previously drained oil pan! This pretty much eliminates the injectors and unless I'm missing something the culprit is the HP pump's lip seal. I'll come back after a little more research.
Btw, the below link is an excellent source (I found the previous videos useless for my purpose) by a pro with a DIY attitude, I pinned the video start where he shows how to replace the lip seal w/o taking the whole pump apart, no other video or text I've found shows this can be done.
<https://youtu.be/h26p78YZIr4?t=1717>

[Argyle38]

Originally Posted by marcjsmith

Argyle, on my 4108. I had a leaking injector pump, but it was leaking from the throttle shaft seals.

my pump had no indexing marks on it. so if you decide to do the job youself. (its not that formidable) make sure you make an index mark on the pump flange and the block. that way you get your pump timing back to where it needs to be.

the biggest part of the job was getting the heat exchanger/manifold out of the way, which mean that return fuel line had to come off. and the nut on the in board side of the pump was a bugger

not my vids, but two that helped give me confidence to do the job myself

the pump rebuild took about an hour. but it was several hours to get the pump off. and several hours to put the pump back on. 90% of which was screwing around with the HE/Manifold

while I had the HE off I did replace all the hoses and cleaned and repainted all the bits.

Thanks for the links and pictures. It's a good video but the guy doesn't show anything about the timing aspects of refitting the pump, which is where you can get in to trouble. For instance, the video shows him spinning the pump shaft once it's off. I thought that was a no-no. I thought that the whole reason for scribing a mark on the pump housing and the block was so that when you reinstall, the pump is in the exact same position. If the pump shaft has been spun then you have no idea what position the shaft is in (rotationally speaking) vs. when you pulled it out. Unless of course the pump shaft is keyed to pump drive gear, but from the pictures I've seen, it seems to just be a 12 point star of something similar.

Did you have any issues with the reinstall and timing? Sounds like Mike had a pro helping him and still had problems.

Fortunately or unfortunately, I've had the Bowman type manifold off about 4 or 5 times over the past 8 or so years dealing with breaking manifold mounting studs. Just replaced the head a month ago for that reason. So getting the manifold off, while a PITA, is not an unknown for me. At least I know the nuts aren't seized up or anything. Yay.

[marcjsmith]

the pump has an indexed shaft. it can only go back into the engine one way.

take a look at the pics i took of my pump and motor. arrows show the indexed shaft. and the female side on the engine.

the reason the pump only has three mounting bolts and the holes are elongated is such the the entire pump can be rotated (twisted) so to speak. this is what adjusts the pump timing.

this is why its important for the pump and block to have a common scribe mark to get the pump back to the same spot.

on the pic of the pump, the upper arrow shows my scribe mark on the pump there is a corresponding mark on the block.

if you buy a rebuilt pump, I'm not sure how you would easily adjust the timing back to the way it was since you don't have the scribe mark.

now if they rebuild your old pump, then the scribe mark lives on.

Perkins claims that there are timing marks on the flange and the block. but I couldn't find them.

https://www.import-car.com/tech-tip-...diesel-engine/

I was worried about the timing as well...internet helped cure my fears. the worst part of the bowman is only being able to get 1/4 turn each time on the manifold nuts... ugh...

[Argyle38]

Originally Posted by marcjsmith

the pump has an indexed shaft. it can only go back into the engine one way.

take a look at the pics i took of my pump and motor. arrows show the indexed shaft. and the female side on the engine.



Perkins claims that there are timing marks on the flange and the block. but I couldn't find them.

https://www.import-car.com/tech-tip-...diesel-engine/

I was worried about the timing as well...internet helped cure my fears. the worst part of the bowman is only being able to get 1/4 turn each time on the manifold nuts... ugh...

That's awesome. Thanks! Makes much more sense now.

I think that when you get a remanufactured pump, they want you to make sure that cylinder 1 is at TDC and they deliver the pumps with that assumption. It seems like I read something like that last summer the first time I found diesel in the oil. When the head was off, I did make a mark on my crank pulley at that position, just in case, but I don't know how accurate it is. I didn't have a depth mic on it or anything.

That Foley article mentions removing the water pump">raw water pump to access the timing gear, but doesn't explain why. The guy in the video you linked did that as well but I don't think it benefited him. Did you do that? Seems like the pump gear should be able to slide on and off from its mounting position.

[marcjsmith]

i did take it off since i replaced the hoses and impeller, but there was nothing in there that i needed to access to remove the fuel pump.



i think the other style of fuel pump with the mechanical governor needs to be unbolted from the water pump side since it doesn't have the shaft like the hydraulically governed pump.



pic on the top right is the mech governed pump.

https://www.tadiesels.com/fuel_injector_acc.html

[Argyle38]

Originally Posted by marcjsmith

i did take it off since i replaced the hoses and impeller, but there was nothing in there that i needed to access to remove the fuel pump.

i think the other style of fuel pump with the mechanical governor needs to be unbolted from the water pump side since it doesn't have the shaft like the hydraulically governed pump.

pic on the top right is the mech governed pump.

https://www.tadiesels.com/fuel_injector_acc.html

Mine is the hydraulically governed. The good news is I got it off with only one troublesome part (the return line), otherwise, not too bad. More good news is that as I was removing it, diesel was leaking out of the front shaft seal like a sieve, so that's a pretty good smoking, or dripping, gun.



Were you (or anyone else) able to find a shop manual online for this model? It seems like there are a lot of resources for the mechanically governed pumps, but almost nothing for hydraulically governed. All of the Youtube videos on pump rebuilds are for mechanically as well.

[marcjsmith]

sorry brother, I can't help you much there. even a good cut-away drawing would go a long way and those seem hard to find as well...



Kinda leads me to believe (maybe erroneously) that the hydro and mech governed pumps don't operate that much differently from one another, the main difference only being how they are governed.


I did find this, https://injectionpumps.co.uk/exploded-diagrams/ scroll down to lucas cav/dpa

[Argyle38]

Thanks for looking. I also contacted parts4engines, the outfit in the UK where I bought the rebuild kit. They also didn't have a lead on any online documentation. It's amazing to me how little documentation there is on these pumps. I've done countless internet searches, even putting my own pumps part number (3247F190) in and I still get a lot of hits for the mechanically governed pump. That type must be way more common. I was able to find the 'instruction manual' that has a cutaway drawing, which is helpful, but that's it.

There have been some videos that have been helpful. There were the two videos that you (marcjsmith) linked. That guy was pretty good, but like you, he didn't have to do a full teardown of the unit to get to his failed seals.

Found this guy; he's an Aussie tractor mechanic. It's also a mechanically governed pump, but he does a good job of explaining what's what, so much so that I find myself thinking in an Australian accent while I'm disassembling the pump.
https://youtu.be/h26p78YZIr4


This might be the most useful video, and certainly the most entertaining. Tune in for the content, stay for the accent. I think the narrator here is the same guy that did all British narrations between 1950 to 1980. It's just magnificent. It's actually a really good video showing exactly how these things work. Really fantastic old school engineering. Without a shop manual or a detailed parts chart, it helps if you just know what's going on.
https://youtu.be/kqDBMLB7jcY

So it turns out, if you have a diesel leak in to crank-case, it has to be getting there through the drive shaft seals. With the hydraulically governed pump, this requires an almost complete tear down, but fortunately, it isn't that complicated. You take out all of the bolts and banjo-bolts that attach through the pump body to the pump itself and remove the throttle assembly. I was concerned about the throttle assembly, but the hydro pump is easier than the mechanical. You remove the two star bolts on the top and the whole assembly slides out. There is a hallow cylinder with holes in the side, that slides out of a hole in the pump. This is the fuel governor and it's attached to the throttle and the shut off lever. Once all this stuff is out the pump can be slid backward and out of the housing. This took a little bit of work because of years of grime against the o-ring, but nothing not expected.

You shouldn't have to disassemble the actual pump any more than this. Removal of the pump body reveals the back side of the drive shaft inside of the housing. The shaft is held in place by a circlip. Since it's down inside of the housing, you'll definitely need a needle nose style circlip removal tool. It was a bit tricky to get it out but eventually I got it. The shaft then slides forward and out of the housing. There are two 'o-ring's' on the shaft. They are really rubber washers that are over stretched on the shaft and bent back toward the direction of the housing to form sort of 'cup' shaped o-rings. They are difficult to remove without destroying them and the new ones are difficult to install and they seem quite flimsy. However, when I test fit the shaft after putting on the new rings, it definitely seems a lot tighter than before so I'm rather optimistic.

I also took the throttle assembly apart, just to replace all the o-rings "while I have it out". Both the throttle lever and the shut off valve lever just pull out once the throttle body attachment bolts are removed. Once they are both out, the "hollow cylinder" fuel governor assembly will just fall out, but it is rotationally symmetric so you can put it back in either orientation that fits. Quite clever really. If you remove the anti-stall control assembly on the top of the throttle body (there's a seal there too), be sure to measure the distance from the anti-stall body nut and the lock nut. I forgot so now I'll be putting it back in with a little guess work. I 'think' that was my only screw up so far.

So that's where I am right now. I honestly don't think any part of the timing has been messed with, even with the total pump body removed from the housing. The injection pump is operated by a cam inside the pump housing. The cam can rotate slightly, controlled by a timing advance mechanism on the bottom of the housing, but otherwise is integral to the housing. The cam 'is' the timing, and it's fixed to the housing, and the housing gets fixed by the timing mark on the block (and the knee bone connects to the thigh bone...). I certainly could have screwed up something else, I but I don't think I've screwed up the timing.

[Capt Gill]

It took me some time to find this; it's the real deal, it'll cost ya $8 USD "CAV DPA Fuel Injection Pump Hydraulically Governed Workshop Manual" and "This is the full workshop manual with detailed instructions for the repair and adjustment of this distributor type fuel injection pump. Download size is approximately 6MB" The manual gives instructions for a complete disassembly & assembly; however, if one is only replacing the seals as I am, you'll need to parse out the instructions a bit. There's no need to disassemble the hydraulic head after removing it from the housing, thereby avoiding any timing issues. Also, no special tools are needed.

<https://www.artificalis.co.uk/products/cav-dpa-fuel-injection-pump-hydraulically-governed-workshop-manual>

[Argyle38]

Originally Posted by Capt Gill

It took me some time to find this; it's the real deal, it'll cost ya $8 USD "CAV DPA Fuel Injection Pump Hydraulically Governed Workshop Manual" and "This is the full workshop manual with detailed instructions for the repair and adjustment of this distributor type fuel injection pump. Download size is approximately 6MB" The manual gives instructions for a complete disassembly & assembly; however, if one is only replacing the seals as I am, you'll need to parse out the instructions a bit. There's no need to disassemble the hydraulic head after removing it from the housing, thereby avoiding any timing issues. Also, no special tools are needed.

<https://www.artificalis.co.uk/products/cav-dpa-fuel-injection-pump-hydraulically-governed-workshop-manual>

That's great! Thanks. I think I did see this site while I was searching, but I also saw so many obvious scam sites, or at least 'shady' sites that I think I passed it by when I saw they were asking for money. Also a lot of sites even said "hydraulically governed" but the sketches were clearly for the mechanically governed pump. This is the correct pump and site is legit and you can pay through PayPal, and ~$8 isn't bad. This will definitely make re-assembly a bit less nerve wracking.

[marcjsmith]

well done argyle, sometimes all it takes a little nudge to get outside your comfort zone and expand your knowledge base.


when I reinstalled mine, even though I took extreme care to get the idle set screws back to the original place. i was having trouble getting the engine restarted, and it wasn't intil I went full throttle and had then engine just lumping along. found out the that i had the idle set screw, set wrong.


so if the engine seems to have trouble starting and running giver it more throttle and recheck the idle adjustment screws.