Perkins 4-108 Nightmare

[CSY Man]

CSY, If you are getting those kind of RPMs with the transmission engaged I would have the tach checked or see if you lost your prop.
__________________

Tach is checked and calibrated.

If you don't get full RPM, ya are over-propped and will never get the advertised HP.

What is the RPM ya are getting?

[Tom967]

Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler

I don't think you quite get it all though. You are getting a new starter. So take the starter out of the quote. Keep the old one. You are getting a new Alternator. Do the same. Go through and remove all things not required to "recon" the motor. You will find the price will dramaticly drop. This guy is doing a top job. I think he is approaching this a a true pro. Others out there would be very happy to do a very quick recon and return a rusty iron lump to you. It may run, but it is hardly recon'd.
Lets face it, it will be a totaly new engine and just as reliable as any new engine, by the time he has finished with it. With the result of no cost in upgrading and having an engine that although may be a 30yr old design, will probably outlast the new Yanmar.
Or.....How about cutting a deal with the mechanic. Say to him, "if I buy a new engine, will you take the 108 as a trade in and the $795 off the price of the new engine".

Cut corners?...spend $5000.00 to have your engine rebuilt vs the $7,200 rebuild. quote?..or spend $ 7000 for a new engine.. A guy just yesterday on his 37 at Marina paid $7,000 for new 36 hp Kabota..

Now a year later put your boat up for sale... You tell a potential buyer the engine rebuilt...he's thinking...I'll need a new engine..this one is 30 years old.."poor investment of funds"...for starters..

If you tell same buyer new engine less than a year old..You'll sell boat..He's not thinking engine replacement..Using your logic Alan.."Now your set for another 30 years"..

Just like women..no matter how much makeup.. or exercise..Sophia Lauren will never look or perform like Angelina Jolie.."time takes it's toll"

[jimisbell]

Well, I just gotta jump in here on Alans side.

1) The old engine was running so its not in too bad a condition.
2) Its a Perkins and the Perkins is "Bullet proof"
3) I have been a boat buyer many times over the years and I look an the name, not the age of the engine and I listen to it to make my decisions. Perkins beats Yanmar 10 to 1 in my book. My current boat perchase, last spring, had a 1983 Perkins 401-8 in it and I have had only one problem in 300 hours of operation, a plugged fuel filter. It sat for 15 years before being restarted 2 years ago and NOTHING was changed. Perkins is TOUGH!
4) You can get a low time running Perkins on E-Bay for under $3,000 and with the old one in the garage for spares you will be set for at least 30 years.
5) Personnaly I prefer Sophia to Angelina with or without makeup.

[Benny]

I have a 4-108 that runs well. My displacement is 11 tons or 22,000lbs.

Am I underpowered and could an Autoprop provide the extra thrust I should have if I am without repowering?

Thanks for any info

[jimisbell]

Do you know what your prop size is?

I dont think there is an adjustable prop that will give better efficiency than a fixed prop. A properly sized fixed prop is much better than an adjustable prop which is after all a compromise.

I have an 18x13 prop and the engine revs to 3600 at full throttle prop engaged and pushing the boat. This is 90% of RED LINE so the prop is properly sized. I used to have a 19x18 prop and the engine would only turn to 2200 rpm and it would overheat at that setting. I had to run it at 1800 to keep the temperature down. So that would look like the engine was undersized. Well, it was, but only as respect the prop size. You must first make sure the prop is the right size before deciding the engine is too small. It may just be overpropped.

BUT...my boat is 18,000 pounds and the 4-108 is more than suffient so it should also be for yours....except that we dont know what the bottom configuration is on your boat either. If you are pushing a shoe box through the water it will take more power than pushing a knife through the water.

[Tom967]

Originally Posted by jimisbell

Well, I just gotta jump in here on Alans side.

1) The old engine was running so its not in too bad a condition.
2) Its a Perkins and the Perkins is "Bullet proof"
3) I have been a boat buyer many times over the years and I look an the name, not the age of the engine and I listen to it to make my decisions. Perkins beats Yanmar 10 to 1 in my book. My current boat perchase, last spring, had a 1983 Perkins 401-8 in it and I have had only one problem in 300 hours of operation, a plugged fuel filter. It sat for 15 years before being restarted 2 years ago and NOTHING was changed. Perkins is TOUGH!
4) You can get a low time running Perkins on E-Bay for under $3,000 and with the old one in the garage for spares you will be set for at least 30 years.
5) Personnaly I prefer Sophia to Angelina with or without makeup.

Sounds like you play tennis with a Davis Classic wooden racket.."Good racket in it's time...LOL

I'm sorry..have to disagree on all points....But realize cannot change someone's Philosophy...What changes philosophy though is when you're putting out the almighty dollar..To fall in love with the merits of an old line brand engine is rediculous..(You' say the same about my Volvo MD3B) or even suggest buying some $3000.00 relic is rediculous.."That engine will leave a trail of tears.".

Don't lose perspective..we are talking an auxiliary engine for a SAILBOAT..

One is problem free (NEW ENGINE)..the other an old block given (NEW LIFE)..with same cost factor. ?.What are you going to tell prospective buyer..The engine is 30 years old ..but will last another 30 years..BE SERIOUS..

[jimisbell]

Originally Posted by Tom967

To fall in love with the merits of an old line brand engine is rediculous..(You' say the same about my Volvo MD3B) or even suggest buying some $3000.00 relic is rediculous.."That engine will leave a trail of tears.".

Don't lose perspective..we are talking an auxiliary engine for a SAILBOAT..

One is problem free (NEW ENGINE)..the other an old block given (NEW LIFE)..with same cost factor. ?.What are you going to tell prospective buyer..The engine is 30 years old ..but will last another 30 years..BE SERIOUS..

It is hardly the same cost factor!!! I would say the repower will run well over $8000 and a used but good engine will run $3000 thus we have $5000 in the "engine overhaul" account. Pilots are very much aware of this type of accounting and their lives depend on the engine running ALWAYS.

A sailboat owner MIGHT find himself in mortal danger if the engine failed, but with sails he probably wont.

Secondaly, if you buy a boat with your eye toward the day you will sell it, you have your prioritys in the wrong place and will never own the boat you really want. That is unless you run with the majority taste...which I for one do not and dont want to be even associated with the average molyarc that buys a plastic tub to go on picnics.

Thirdly, given the choice between a new car and the 1948 Bently, I will take the Bently for reliability, any day, any course. Old is not bad. Old is usualy just well built, lacking electronics (known for their failure rate) and perhaps slightly less efficient. But the loss in efficiency may cost 1 pint of diesel per hour to be ballaanced against the $5000 you have in the savings account which is earning interest faster than you are burning that extra fuel.

Your attitude seems to indicate a surpluss of cash and a lazyness to do the required math.

[Alan Wheeler]

One is problem free (NEW ENGINE)..the other an old block given (NEW LIFE)..with same cost factor

But this uis where you guy's are totaly screwign up facts and missing the point.
The costs are NOT the same or even close to similar. You WILL double the cost of the new engine in the install. It WILL have more down time for the new engine to be installed.
If the prospective new buy does not know the difference in reliability and longevity of the Perkins over a Yanmar, even though Yanmar is a good engine, then they know little about boats.

Your attitude seems to indicate a surpluss of cash and a lazyness to do the required math.

Amen to that.

[Tom967]

Originally Posted by jimisbell

It is hardly the same cost factor!!! I would say the repower will run well over $8000 and a used but good engine will run $3000 thus we have $5000 in the "engine overhaul" account. Pilots are very much aware of this type of accounting and their lives depend on the engine running ALWAYS.

A sailboat owner MIGHT find himself in mortal danger if the engine failed, but with sails he probably wont.

Secondaly, if you buy a boat with your eye toward the day you will sell it, you have your prioritys in the wrong place and will never own the boat you really want. That is unless you run with the majority taste...which I for one do not and dont want to be even associated with the average molyarc that buys a plastic tub to go on picnics.

Thirdly, given the choice between a new car and the 1948 Bently, I will take the Bently for reliability, any day, any course. Old is not bad. Old is usualy just well built, lacking electronics (known for their failure rate) and perhaps slightly less efficient. But the loss in efficiency may cost 1 pint of diesel per hour to be ballaanced against the $5000 you have in the savings account which is earning interest faster than you are burning that extra fuel.

Your attitude seems to indicate a surpluss of cash and a lazyness to do the required math.

You have convoluted the facts with misplaced emotion:

1. The argument was the 7200 rebuild bill…my point..don’t even consider it..buy new engine..”You can in fact get a 37HP Kabota engine for 7000.
2. Alan surveyed the Bill and said save starter and generator..with a few other parts..So even if it went down to 5000 at best.…his rebuilt 30 yr old fossil plus “bound to be additional headaces “…toute suite.. for 5 vs. a new engine for 7.
3. This is where you jumped in..extolling the merits of the fossil and introducing a 3000 e bay special..My point…”That leads to a trail of tears“..
The drama at sea., as you point out can be avoided with NEW ENGINE…He loves the boat one day..sells it the next.. taste changes with experience..
The prospective buyer wants a new engine not a rebuilt fossil.. The surveyor is happy to see a new engine.. which can be the difference between insurance or not to the 21 yr. old young lady underwriter..

Never sign on to a sinking ship…LOL

Now..a new factor brought in.."irrelevent" to the point

Installation cost?....That 7200 rebuild estimate didn't include installation..so they cancel out..

[cburger]

Originally Posted by Tom967

Sounds like you play tennis with a Davis Classic wooden racket.."Good racket in it's time...LOL

Originally Posted by Tom967

I'm sorry..have to disagree on all points....But realize cannot change someone's Philosophy...What changes philosophy though is when you're putting out the almighty dollar..To fall in love with the merits of an old line brand engine is rediculous..(You' say the same about my Volvo MD3B) or even suggest buying some $3000.00 relic is rediculous.."That engine will leave a trail of tears.".

Don't lose perspective..we are talking an auxiliary engine for a SAILBOAT..

One is problem free (NEW ENGINE)..the other an old block given (NEW LIFE)..with same cost factor. ?.What are you going to tell prospective buyer..The engine is 30 years old ..but will last another 30 years..BE SERIOUS..

Tom, I couldn't agree with you more, but I guess the 37' Bently with its Lucas ignition and electronics is more reliable than my 05 Honda Accord?
If being pragmatic makes us lazy then so be it. I don't want to continually have to be pulling the motor apart and slowly get bled to death finacially. I have an ex-wife that is doing that quite nicely already.

Cheers,

CB

[Tom967]

Originally Posted by cburger

Tom, I couldn't agree with you more, but I guess the 37' Bently with its Lucas ignition and electronics is more reliable than my 05 Honda Accord?
If being pragmatic makes us lazy then so be it. I don't want to continually have to be pulling the motor apart and slowly get bled to death finacially. I have an ex-wife that is doing that quite nicely already.

Cheers,

CB

If you want to save a few bucks..Take a look at the Kabota...The guy who runs Boat US here in Key West told me just
yesterday..that's what he repowered with..rather than with a Yanmar...paid 7000

[jimisbell]

Originally Posted by cburger

Tom, I couldn't agree with you more, but I guess the 37' Bently with its Lucas ignition and electronics is more reliable than my 05 Honda Accord?
If being pragmatic makes us lazy then so be it. I don't want to continually have to be pulling the motor apart and slowly get bled to death finacially. I have an ex-wife that is doing that quite nicely already.

Cheers,

CB

Yes, "the '37 Bently with is Lucas ignition and electronics is more reliable than" your 05 Honda Accord...BY FAR. But I said a 1948 Bentley, but its still true.

It is my perception that you, like my "Ex-Son-in-law", equate new with good. I also will bet you have never tried the other route. You just learned this line from your father and will cling to it forever without exploring the possibilitys. I have owned at least 100 "old" cars in the past from a 1936 Jaguar to my newest, a 1983 El Camino. Cars like Bentleys, Packards, Lolas, Bricklins, Continental (when it was still a Continental not a Ford) and many more. I have also owned boat engines like Red Ball Continental, Johnston, Sea Gull, Ford, Perkins 6-354 and 4-108 and presently own a Perkins 4-108 and a Volvo 2003 Turbo. Taken care of as ALL engines must be....unless you are floating in cash and can afford to throw it away on a repower....old engines last longer and are more reliable than the newer, lighter engines. Why do you think they are lighter....its because they left something out, ....quality.

The bleeding you refer to is caused by impropper maintenance and besides, the cost of maintaining a $3000 used engine when you have an older one for spares is very small after you have put, by your estimate, ($14.000 to $16,000 for a repower all inclusive) at least $11,000 in the bank. That $11,000 wil yield about $500 a year for maintenance and you will still have the $11,000 in the bank. When you sell to a knowlageble buyer he will not have a problem with an oldie but goodie and you have an extra #11,000 on your price because its still in the bank!!!

Like my Ex Son In Law, who always had to have new not used, new car new house, new tools only from Craftsman, (Ill bet you dont shop at Harbor Freight either, he didnt because it was Chinese made) When he was married to my daughter he refused to buy a $22 Harbor freight pump for his Air Conditioner because it was "junk" but instead replaced the $450 pumps every 6 months. After my daughter came to her senses I replaced the next $450 pump with a $22 Chinese pump expecting it only had to last 10 days to be economicaly feasable (not counting my labor of course..#8-). Guess what? Two and a half years later, its still running, as are the other two $22 pumps that replaced the other two $450 pumps when they went out.

Pre judging based on heresay and supposition is why many really foolish people replace the Straight 6 in the Jaguars with Chevy 350s. That old 4.2 Liter 6 ( I have three of them myself) will still be going long after the Cheby 350 has fried itself.

I will never change your mind. But that is good because your lavish lifestyle supports me in that it keeps paying taxes that reduce my tax burden.

[Alan Wheeler]

CB, I apologise, It is obviouse you already made the decision that you wanted a new engine before you even posted here. The main question is obviousely the issue "should the mechanic have charged so much to give a quote?"
I think you have been given a reply of "maybe, but we can't give a difinitive yes or no without knowing ALL the facts when the Mechanic can not give his side of the story".
Cold cut a simple reply without knowing those facts are.
Question of Unknown Mechanic. Totaly meaningless. If you doubted his reputation, why did you go to him. If you thougth he could do the job, then he should be able to do the job. He has shown no signs of anything else with any information you have given so far. The fact that he HAS carried out the work he has done so far, is to me a sign he is indeed a true proffesional. You can often expect to pay someone who is a true pro a little more because they don't cut corners.
The error I see may lye with the mechanic, or it may lye with you. Mostly it has been a case of poor communication between you and the Mechanic. we will never know here because we do not have the Mechanics side of the story. But if it was me bringing the engien to the mechanic, I would have asked very clearly what the cost of quote would be, negotiated with him how far I wanted to spend on a quote, and suggested a top end price of how much I wanted to spend in total. And perhaps that if the engine was going to be over X amount, I would consider a new engine. If you have not communicated any of those things, then I think the Mechanic was well in his right to do and charge what he has. 9hrs to strip and clean parts is not over the top. We have already told you that.
A Perkins engine is still today a very good a reliable engine and one well sort after as a name in a boat. It still remains one of the cheapest engines to rebuild.
Stop comparing a new engine price of $8K with the rebuild. The new engine is going to cost you more like $15K by the time it is installed. That's the real deal difference. Compare $15K to $7K and then make the decision what you want to do.
While spending $15K, fitting a modern engine, may make your boat more "re-sale'able" it will never increase the price by a further $7K. You are still going to get the same market value with either engine. Don't over capitalise.
And finally, will you notice any performance difference between the two makes of engines?? if it is a Displacement hull, most likely very little. If it is a plaing hull, then yes it could make a big difference with weight saving and a different power band.

[never monday]

Originally Posted by Tom967

If you want to save a few bucks..Take a look at the Kabota...The guy who runs Boat US here in Key West told me just
yesterday..that's what he repowered with..rather than with a Yanmar...paid 7000

First, KUBOTA DOESN'T MAKE MARINE ENGIES FOR THE US MARKET...PERIOD.
I'm sorry to yell but the continued posting of intentional DISinformation drives me crazy.

Kubota industrial base engines are converted to marine use by the following companies. Nanni, Beta, Universal and Phasor. All use the same base engine.
What is a base engine? Block, crank, pistons, head, cam, valve gear, timing gear, fuel system.

Kubota carries no warranty on these engine, it is the marinizers responsibility to cover warranty.

Yes, they are comparable to Yanmar. I think in some applications they are superior. It all depends on the boat and the owners plans for the boat.

Second,
I also agree that repowering is CB's better decision. He was already near his whits end with the 4-108. After he could have repaired the Perkins, and it started leaking...again. Now what. With the repower he'll have a new dynoed, warranted engine and he can enjoy his sailing instead of cleaning the bilge.

On instalation. I don't think he'll double his costs. Rough estimate WITHOUT seeing the boat. 2500-3000 in instalation expenses.


off my soap box.

[cburger]

Originally Posted by jimisbell

Yes, "the '37 Bently with is Lucas ignition and electronics is more reliable than" your 05 Honda Accord...BY FAR. But I said a 1948 Bentley, but its still true.

Originally Posted by jimisbell

Originally Posted by jimisbell

It is my perception that you, like my "Ex-Son-in-law", equate new with good. I also will bet you have never tried the other route. You just learned this line from your father and will cling to it forever without exploring the possibilitys. I have owned at least 100 "old" cars in the past from a 1936 Jaguar to my newest, a 1983 El Camino. Cars like Bentleys, Packards, Lolas, Bricklins, Continental (when it was still a Continental not a Ford) and many more. I have also owned boat engines like Red Ball Continental, Johnston, Sea Gull, Ford, Perkins 6-354 and 4-108 and presently own a Perkins 4-108 and a Volvo 2003 Turbo. Taken care of as ALL engines must be....unless you are floating in cash and can afford to throw it away on a repower....old engines last longer and are more reliable than the newer, lighter engines. Why do you think they are lighter....its because they left something out, ....quality.

The bleeding you refer to is caused by impropper maintenance and besides, the cost of maintaining a $3000 used engine when you have an older one for spares is very small after you have put, by your estimate, ($14.000 to $16,000 for a repower all inclusive) at least $11,000 in the bank. That $11,000 wil yield about $500 a year for maintenance and you will still have the $11,000 in the bank. When you sell to a knowlageble buyer he will not have a problem with an oldie but goodie and you have an extra #11,000 on your price because its still in the bank!!!

Like my Ex Son In Law, who always had to have new not used, new car new house, new tools only from Craftsman, (Ill bet you dont shop at Harbor Freight either, he didnt because it was Chinese made) When he was married to my daughter he refused to buy a $22 Harbor freight pump for his Air Conditioner because it was "junk" but instead replaced the $450 pumps every 6 months. After my daughter came to her senses I replaced the next $450 pump with a $22 Chinese pump expecting it only had to last 10 days to be economicaly feasable (not counting my labor of course..#8-). Guess what? Two and a half years later, its still running, as are the other two $22 pumps that replaced the other two $450 pumps when they went out.

Pre judging based on heresay and supposition is why many really foolish people replace the Straight 6 in the Jaguars with Chevy 350s. That old 4.2 Liter 6 ( I have three of them myself) will still be going long after the Cheby 350 has fried itself.

I will never change your mind. But that is good because your lavish lifestyle supports me in that it keeps paying taxes that reduce my tax burden.

It's really refreshing having a discussion with someone as truly open minded as your self. Its nice to see that with all of your vast life experience that you remain unjaded and not bitter and don't make assumptions about people or situations you know nothing about.

CB