Rebuild or Replace

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Originally Posted by laurenalanders

I am buying a 1993 Beneteau Oceanis. The original engine is a Perkins M-90 4.235. It has no reported issues until during the sea trial when it suddenly stopped. We just found out it threw a rod in the second cylinder. The owner is taking care of everything and the plan is to rebuild. Before we go through I am trying to get as much feedback and thoughts on rebuild versus replacing. If I do replace it, I would go with a Yanmar.

This is not your boat,not your problem. After you buy boat you can think about what to do.
Owner decide what to do with engine, normally everything is around money, you can make an offer less for rebuild cost , add some money and buy new engine what you wish.

[goboatingnow]

Do not let the owner rebuild it. Get an agreed quote from a reputable Perkins operation. Add 15% contingency and seek that deduction. You want to oversee the rebuild not the PO. Alternatively seek a full new engine cost discount

That’s of course if you proceed at all

Personally I’d discount the value of the engine completely from the sale. It may be a sign that the owner has run out of money as it would be unusual to offer a boat for sale in that condition as it discounts the sale far more then the repair costs

Thread carefully here make sure any costs are more then covered. Get expert advice

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Do not let the owner rebuild it. Get an agreed quote from a reputable Perkins operation. Add 15% contingency and seek that deduction. You want to oversee the rebuild not the PO. Alternatively seek a full new engine cost discount

That’s of course if you proceed at all

Personally I’d discount the value of the engine completely from the sale. It may be a sign that the owner has run out of money as it would be unusual to offer a boat for sale in that condition as it discounts the sale far more then the repair costs

Thread carefully here make sure any costs are more then covered. Get expert advice

Sure he is the only buyer in all world.

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Compass790

+1 for this sage advice.

+1

Yaaay, Lepke!

Originally Posted by Compass790

I'd go with a mechanical injection Beta if repowering rather than a common rail Yanmar, but that's my opinion.

Much easier to repair in remote places & far cheaper parts not that a new engine should need any for quite some time.

Yup - that's my rationale as well for Betas being my new go-to engine:

1. They are well-built and solid.

2. They are NOT common rail - requiring precise/finnicky injection adjustments, usually by a "Yanmar-Certified" tech. Where're ya gonna find one of those in Bora Bora or worse, repairing at sea?

2. Beta has not yet got to point of the predatory parts pricing of Volvo and now Yanmar (requiring and specifying brand-name parts which may cost at least 3 times as much - somebody correct me if I've got the inflation rate wrong; could be higher... I read a Forum Member who recently quoted a Yanmar part at 5x the conventional price).

Yeah, get yourself a nice Beta if your Perkins can't be rebuilt.

Fair winds,
LittleWing77

[cr180]

Have a Perkins 6.354. They don’t just throw rods. Others can chime in but sounds like may have been hydrolocked (water in cylinder likely from sea water backing up into exhaust system due to faulty exhaust riser or bad exhaust design). As others have said, may have damaged block and or head as well. Be sure to have them checked.

That said, the Perkins when cared for will start immediately, run at lower rpms, and the older design is immune from the electronic device failures in newer common rail engines.

[Manateeman]

Leaked is correct. What else is wrong with the boat that ...just like the engine...will become evident after you buy it.
Lot of fish in the sea. I’d move on.
Mark

[Emmalina]

I have a 1978 Perkins 6354 that dropped and I repeat dropped a rod about 4 years ago. This was caused by the valve sticking. After repositioning the rod and releasing the valve with wd40 it has been fine since then. Friend told me this does happen when an engine is sat for a while without use. I would definitely rebuild but that's just me. As for leaky unsupported engines Its all about maintenance. Parts not a problem and a full rebuild kit is about 700USD and I keep one onboard.

[Phyrcooler]

Good comments here regarding NOT buying his boat if the OWNER has overseen a “repair” or “rebuild”. They will fix the minimum to get it running, potentially leaving you with a mostly worn out motor. 2 obvious options:

1: Get a couple solid estimates for a full R&R rebuild - (to be overseen by YOU after purchase), including potential block replacement if it was damaged by thrown rod (highly likely). This is probably most economical. Negotiate as much of this cost into the purchase. Downside is you have a rebuilt, but old technology motor which may need hard-to-find parts in the future (probably an over the horizon or maybe a non-issue in reality).

2: Get quotes on full replacement with a Beta or Yanmar. As previously pointed out, many potential issues getting it installed. They will need to get onboard and take measurements and budget for motor mounts, potential engine bed modifications, shaft replacement, exhaust run, etc.. Definitely a more costly option you’ll need to negotiate.

In regards to motors, both Beta and Yanmar provide great engines. Not all Yanmars are Common Rail. My 3M30AE is not, and is also factory supplied with a serpentine belt run 125a alternator. Both brands have good reputations in small boat diesels.

Reality in today’s market is the owner will probably not give up too much in their asking price. Otherwise, he’ll let you walk, cheaply as possible get it running, and foist it into the next buyer. Your best tact in my humble opinion is to negotiate the cost of a rebuild and share the cost with the owner - in the best split you can negotiate. Unless this is your forever boat (they almost never are! ), then negotiate for a new motor.

[cr180]

Originally Posted by Emmalina

I have a 1978 Perkins 6354 that dropped and I repeat dropped a rod about 4 years ago. This was caused by the valve sticking. After repositioning the rod and releasing the valve with wd40 it has been fine since then. Friend told me this does happen when an engine is sat for a while without use. I would definitely rebuild but that's just me. As for leaky unsupported engines Its all about maintenance. Parts not a problem and a full rebuild kit is about 700USD and I keep one onboard.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Would not thought that scenario likely. Thanks again.

[sail sfbay]

Welcome to the forum!!

Suggest talking to a couple of marine diesel engine mechanics about the feasibility of rebuilding the existing vs. replacing the engine and obtain budget quotes. If you allow the owner to rebuild, hire your own mechanic oversee the rebuild.

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by Emmalina

I have a 1978 Perkins 6354 that dropped and I repeat dropped a rod about 4 years ago. This was caused by the valve sticking. After repositioning the rod and releasing the valve with wd40 it has been fine since then. Friend told me this does happen when an engine is sat for a while without use. I would definitely rebuild but that's just me. As for leaky unsupported engines Its all about maintenance. Parts not a problem and a full rebuild kit is about 700USD and I keep one onboard.

I’m thinking you mean “dropped a pushrod”, that’s a whole different event to a dropped or thrown Con rod which is a very destructive incident.

[Jim Cate]

^^^^^^

Agreed! You don't repair a broken con rod with wd-40!

For the sake of this discussion it would be useful to know what the OP really meant by "threw a rod". That could cover a multitude of sins! In a previous incarnation I used to be involved in serious drag racing and broke a number of engines in various ways (small block chevy engines, they were). I remember one where a rod broke at ~9000 rpm. the only undamaged parts of the engine were the oil pump, and external injector fuel pump and a few valves... every other part had some damage, mostly fatal. Cracks in the block, badly scarred crank, distorted other rods, bent valves, cracked head on one side, buggered valve seats on the other... and so on. No amount of WD40 was gonna fix that one, and I wonder about just how much ancillary damage was involved with the OP's "thrown rod"? Likely not quite so bad at ~2200 rpm but still...

I would not personally rebuild that engine. Most likely replace with either a used or a complete rebuilt engine, depending upon budget and future plans for the boat. Reconfiguring for a different engine (unless she is truly a forever boat) blows the budget up pretty badly in most cases.

At any rate, I hope the OP went out and bought a lotto ticket after that sea trial, for it was surely his lucky day!

Jim

[Emmalina]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

I’m thinking you mean “dropped a pushrod”, that’s a whole different event to a dropped or thrown Con rod which is a very destructive incident.

Just re read the OP and yes a broken conrod is a very different animal !

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by laurenalanders

I am buying a 1993 Beneteau Oceanis. The original engine is a Perkins M-90 4.235. It has no reported issues until during the sea trial when it suddenly stopped. ............. If I do replace it, I would go with a Yanmar.

Let's go back to the beginning, and try to look at this differently.



"I am buying..." You "found" the boat you like and decided to make an offer and before you closed a major part of the boat broke.


Can you answer: How long did it take you to find this particular boat? Were you looking for ONLY this builder and model? (I looked for over a year for only my particular boat.) Are there other boats that suited you and still do? Do you have any timelines in your life for this purchase? Do you have a boat now that you can still enjoy if you continue looking?



I'm suggesting that you reconsider the whole issue from a different point of view. You're part way down the road and hit a road block. Either you go around it, or start over and find a new road.


I think Jim's input is invaluable, all the rest is important information that may or may not eventually apply to you.


All the best.

[argonauta1]

I had a Beneteau 440/445 Oceanis built in 1993 by then Beneteau USA. It was equipped with a YANMAR 4JH-2E. The engine now has over 10,000 hours and is still going strong. It burns very little oil and has just returned to Victoria BC from Hawaii. The engine has never been over heated or over boosted although it has spent a good time in early days at low RPM charging the then engine driven refrigeration. I bought it as a charter vessel with Moorings but subsequently did a refit and circumnavigated. Never had the slightest hiccup. I loved that engine and since we sold, the new owner has never had a problem.

I suspect the 1993 Beneteau 440 in question was built at the French Beneteau factory where they obviously were still using the Perkins before switching to Yanmar. Since Yanmar has proven virtually bullet proof, you might consider getting a Yanmar factory rebuild. They run around ten grand plus. Certainly my advice would be to ditch the Perkins.