Rebuild or Replacement of Old Engine?

[Morris Wilson]

No I don't but that would be a great idea. I will look into that. The bigger engines do have a normal seal. Much better.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by cottonsail

The issue with rebuilds as I see it is you are dealing with '50's technology. All the Westerbeke's and Perkin's engines mentioned here us a rear crankshaft packing, not a seal. Hence leakage. The front of the crankshaft on most of these engines do not have a seal but an oil slinger. " My Perkin's does not leak oil. Have you checked the oil level recently?" I went from a W40 Westerbeke to a new D2-50 Volvo Penta. Boat speed went from 6.2 to 6.9 KTS at the same 1 GPH. When you replace an old engine with a current technology engine you gain in so many other ways.

Sounds like the sales pitch you were given by the Volvo dealer. The W-40 has pistons, injection pump and all the other same parts as the Volvo. II mean, what is the current technology?

I'm sorry your W-40 had a rear seal issue. Mine does not and yes, has oil in it. I had one that did leak on an earlier boat but it was so minimal, I did nothing about it (a few drops every 8 hours of use in a containment pan). To rebuild a 4-107 should be way less than $4K, parts and labor. By the time you buy a new engine, redo the beds and prop and all the other nik-nacs you're into it for $12K+

[lo2jones]

You realize there are few or no replacement parts for the old engine. If something breaks in a remote location you could end up doing a Pardee: sailing to your next location with wind only. I just faced the question and am about 95% finished with replacing with new.

Good luck

[nofacey]

I recently rebuilt a Perkins & ran it around the world……was always able to get parts, though sometimes they were being shipped from England….
- I support doing the rebuild yourself - absolute best way to learn the engine,and these are simple tough engines.
- don’t just do block & call it done……there are multiple peripherals that it makes sense to do while apart, in many cases installing new & keeping old as a spare.
Ie replace all hoses, FW recirc pump, fuel lift pump, water pump">raw water pump, starter solenoid
Take the hp fuel pump and all injectors to a shop that specializes in them!
Heat exchangers……there could be three (exhaust, eng oil and tranny oil). - remove them all, and take a good look - if you want to keep each, take them to an automotive radiator shop, get them boiled & pressure tested - that’ll tell you if they’re trustworthy. Popular opinion is that the tranny cooler should just be tossed & replaced - they are comparably cheap vs labour you’ll spend testing - plus the downside of failure is high and not easy to catch till late ( esp if you’re like me and check eng oil routinely and tranny oil rarely)

Aside from knowing the rebuilt motor will fit mounts/prop shaft etc……..a modern rail injected engine requires engine electronics to work - a lightening strike (heaven forbid but not uncommon in some parts of the world) will disable your motor and require parts (and tech knowledge) unlikely to be at hand….whereas the old Perkins might need the spare alternator & starter relay - and can be started and run without either if you know how to jump the starter solenoid with a screwdriver….

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by lo2jones

You realize there are few or no replacement parts for the old engine. If something breaks in a remote location you could end up doing a Pardee: sailing to your next location with wind only. I just faced the question and am about 95% finished with replacing with new.
Good luck

First, you stand as much chance getting parts for a Perkins as a newer engine in a "remote location". There are 10s of thousands of 4-107s and 4-108s running in tractors, fork lifts and freezer units. Even the Chinese are in on the parts markets with them...although not recommended.
When I went to Mexico, I had a Westerbeke W-46 which was an Isuzu fork lift engine base. I took spares like raw water pump(complete), injectors and seal kits. The only problem I ever had was the thermostat housing rotted out and I used JB weld to repair it which lasted until I sold the boat.

The only reason I would replace an engine would be that
1) The original was too small.
2) The original engine is some rare odd-ball like a Renault or Buhk engine that is almost impossible getting parts for.
2) The latest trend of installing an electric engine...which would be a last choice for me.

[Morris Wilson]

Oh. I forgot to add one more reason to stick with the Perkins. They are built in England but are now (since 1998) fully owned by Caterpillar USA. Not bad credentials to have behind you. There has already been a lot of good advise on this forum and I will repeat some other posts by saying don't take any short cuts if you rebuild those old motors are still good and very inexpensive to do a full rebuild. Accessories can easily be more than the basic engine just like any other engine.

[sinnerman]

As a note, my marina neighbor (sort of a Captain Ron) bought an old Taiwanese sailboat with a locked up engine which had water in it from a flooded bilge.

He pulled the injectors, filled the cylinders with low viscosity oil (transmission fluid) and let it soak. He was able to free up the engine.

The moral of the story: unless the engine is heavily corroded, having water ingress into the engine may not always be an engine killer..

cheers

[CarinaPDX]

About a decade ago Perkins announced end of support for these old engines, which, after all, are more than half a century old in design. I took it to mean that some specific parts would be unavailable, not that the more common ones would be discontinued. Certainly there are 3rd party parts, including overhaul kits, available as well. At about the same time major Perkins rebuilders started to taper off their inventories and get out of the business of 4-107/8.. (It used to be that there were multiple options for acquiring high quality Perkins rebuilds, with the option of sending the old engine back for a credit.) Yes, these engines are still in wide use around the world, parts are generally still available, many mechanics are familiar with them, and in good condition work as well as ever. If the block and all of its ancillary systems are in good condition then an overhaul is a good low budget solution, and should extend the engine life by many years. Note: an overhaul is not a rebuild; a rebuilt engine, if available, is about as good as new (or better) - an overhaul is less so. You are talking about an overhaul, not a rebuild.

There are advantages to installing a new engine. The newer designs are better in almost every way, even if the large community of 4-107/8 owners are in denial about it. New engines put out more horsepower per weight and size so it is usually possible to both reduce the size and weight while increasing the power. Newer engines run smoother (less vibration) and with less noise. And they run cleaner, and with a small increase in efficiency from the cleaner burning (usually not too obvious because we tend to take advantage of the extra power). Of course new engines have full parts availability, plus a reasonable expectation of reliability in the first decade or so. Without a doubt a boat with a new engine is preferable to an overhauled 50 year old engine; the only question is whether it is worth the difference in cost and inconvenience to install. It will also increase the resale value of the boat, but not nearly as much as the cost. It is very much a personal choice.

New engines are actually quite affordable, but as noted elsewhere the costs to convert can double that number. Changing the bedlogs is usually not a huge issue, but just one of many. Consider that requirements for the new engine will likely be different so new fuel, water, and exhaust lines may all be a different size (but should be replaced with new anyway). The wiring harness and engine instrumentation will be changed. My new engine required a new Morse control system. With more power can come the need for a new shaft and prop, and probably a new stern tube to fit. My new engine has the fuel system on the opposite side from the old engine, and the electrical (starter, alternator, instrument & control connections) was swapped as well. In my case it made both sides more convenient to access fuel and batteries so actually a win.

Either overhaul or new will work. And as some have noted, it may be possible to get the engine running without an overhaul. Good luck.

Greg

[malbert73]

Yeah- if you plan to keep the boat repower. 4-107/W40 zealots love the engines but did you know it takes >3600 RPM to get that HP out?
Every little moving part is old on a old engine. If you’re expert and can rebuild at low cost then sure.

But a Beta will make you custom feet to fit your beds. A Beta will get you 43 (or 50) hp at 2800 rpm and Kubota parts are everywhere in the world. I get OEM oil and fuel filters on Amazon or from Beta NC for my Beta 50 which replaced an aging Yanmar 4JHE screamer

I read once that a sizeable % of “rebuilds” ended up repowered with a new engine within 3 years. Think about that.

Unless you’re the one doing the rebuild and are really engine saavy, you could be chasing issues for the long term

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Lepke

Where I get parts (www.parts4engines.com) for Perkins, a rebuild kit for the 4.154 is about $500 including all necessary internal parts and gaskets and seals. My experience with Perkins is if the oil was changed normally, the crank is still standard. You could mic it or use plastic gauge. The block doesn't need to leave the boat to rebuild, depends on space to work. The head can go to any decent rebuilder. Unless the injectors are new I usually get them rebuilt when I do the engine. If you can do the work, it should be less than $1500. You can find a workshop manual for about $30 on ebay.

The engine was used in tractors, skid steer loaders and other farm equipment. Doing a search might reveal other options at less money.

www.foleyengines.com sometimes has rebuilt blocks for exchange. They are the most expensive Perkins dealer I have ever dealt with. Everything they sell is available somewhere else for less money. I found it cheaper to ship from the UK than deal with Foley and I'm on the West Coast. Customer service is non-existent.

OP - Lepke is the real deal. He has probably rebuilt more diesels than I've owned.

That said, Trans Atlantic Diesel (TAD - Maryland) is also a good source for rebult swap engines or rebuild kits if you go that direction.

Good luck.

[Sailor 99]

Originally Posted by Abo

Hi, can anyone recommend a good 40 to 50 hp Diesel and gearbox for a Morgan 41. Both new and a rebuild.

Would it be better to get the old engine rebuilt? And if so how much would that cost approximately? The old one got sea water in it.

Thank you for reading, and for your recommendations.

Unfortunately I don't know anyone who ever got a diesel rebuilt that did not end up paying almost the cost of a new one but did not get the benefit of new everything unless they did it all themselves.

I know someone who recently rebuilt his own Volvo 2003 turbo and spent 2k cdn in parts. This was a complete rebuild but he did it himself. He figures that this rebuild would have cost a consumer 12k

I know 2 different people who rebuilt Westerbekes and it cost them almost the price of a new motor and one of them had troubles with it and the shop would not go down to the boat to take a look at it. Bring it to the shop they said. You can read that as no warranty.

One of them could not find a new oil pump so they put the old one back in and it was marginal and that was all.

Both were left with old transmissions, injector pumps, and everything else.

Before you take the plunge on the rebuild how long are parts going to be available for your engine? Who is going to do the re & re. As I said my buddy could not get an oil pump for his Westerbeke. Without an oil pump your kind of done.

My vote is to first get installation drawings for your current motor and then look for a new engine and look at the installation drawings and see if you can make it fit. Keep looking till you find one that pretty much fits.

Balance that off the quotes you can get for a rebuild. Know that those quotes are not going to be firm and that you will get stung at some point.

The only firm quote I could get for rebuilding my 4236 was Trans Atlantic Diesel traders and it was 10500 US & exchange the core. A lot of money given I was also going to need a transmission rebuild as well which likely would have cost 2k. I got a new motor for 15k. New everything.

If you can re & re yourself it will certainly help. The work is actually pretty simple just time consuming and sometimes you need to be a bit clever.

[CarinaPDX]

As I referred to above, a rebuild and an overhaul are not the same things. And we all tend to use the term rebuild when we mean overhaul.

Engine rebuilders literally re-build the engine. They tear down old engines completely into component parts, check each part to specification, and parts that pass are put into inventory or repaired to specification and then inventoried. Then an engine is built to specification (it is basically "blueprinted") with old parts plus new as required. Typically the pistons are sorted by weight in inventory so the newly rebuilt engine is balanced, often to a higher standard than new. The result is a very reliable engine, with the rebuilder's warranty, although sometimes there are rare issues. (I know of one rebuild where the block cracked soon after the installation - impossible to predict. The rebuilder sent another engine at his expense to remedy the problem.) A rebuilt engine is not cheap but is good and is less expensive than new.

As others have noted an overhaul does not typically attempt nearly as much as a rebuild. If you are going to do an overhaul then the injector pump and nozzles should be sent to a lab for servicing. Ideally everything should be checked against spec but that would be unusual. The result will usually be less expensive, and lower quality, than a rebuild, but that is highly dependent on the mechanic.

Personally, I would trust one of the big rebuilders (if that is still an option for this engine) for a swap, although I would still likely prefer a new engine depending on costs. Having a local mechanic do an overhaul is too likely to be pouring money down a rathole for me to recommend.

BTW I had my last engine overhauled. They did a reasonably good job, with one exception that I didn't discover until I had sailed on. The engine would have had to be disassembled in order to correct it, and at that point I realized that it was time to move on to newer technology. YMMV

Greg

[Tillikum]

And once the rebuild is done, put on a bypass filter to protect your investment and your life. There is nothing better than the toilet paper filter for sub-micron filtration and removing up to 5-6 oz of water per roll.

The new John Frantz Oil Refiner has a tapered housing to compress even the flimsy, more-fluff-less-paper rolls sold now. Toilet paper can be got almost anywhere in the world, proprietary filters not so much!

Average full flow filters to 12-15 microns, 80+% of engine wear is caused by particles so small they pass right through a full-flow filter. Not hard to figure it out unless your living depends on not doing so, as someone once said.

These can be plumbed in independently of the full flow and controlled with a petcock on the inflow, with oil return to the pan or filler tube.

Anything so ridiculous as a EGR should be removed ASAP: feeding carbon and exhaust gasses back into an engine is just a good way to wear it out prematurely and degrade combustion.

After a post-rebuild run-in an engine oil analysis would be prudent before going anywhere remote, just to make sure that no hidden wear/bearing failure problems are developing.

Diesels will produce soot faster than a TP filter can remove it, so in that case a centrifugal filter gives the cleanest oil. Make sure it has a rotor you can disassemble and clean, not a "disposable and costs as much as an oil change" rotor.

On a gas engine the TP filter will soon produce oil cleaner than new, as many an analysis has shown. (new oil is filtered to about 4 microns)

Don't believe it? Fine, please yourself.

[skipperpete]

You make some excellent points there Tillikum, by- pass lube oil filters are amazing, I’ve installed a few Gulfcoast and Luberfiner filters on larger marine engines but never seen one on a cruising yacht.
EGR is a form of insanity thats mostly restricted to the automotive industry but if it ever comes to the cruising marine engine I’d wager that Volvo will be at the forefront. I thought that the Frantz filter had vanished from the market, they were quite popular in Australia.

[Tillikum]

The Frantz Filter is alive and well and still persona non grata among those who make money replacing dirty oil instead of cleaning it.

What was needed was oil that would "wear out" or pretend to, so along came additive packages etc. etc. Much debate over that of course, or used to be back when there was still much public memory of earlier times and practices.

Things which work are either replaced by better things or forgotten or suppressed, or some combination thereof. MotorGuard made a similar filter, as did "Tissue-Pak" and a variety of others. They work as well now as they did 70 years ago, which is very well indeed.

Large vessels as you know almost always centrifuge their fuel and lube oil. No one makes a centrifugal oil filter for normal passenger vehicles of about 4L sump capacity now except Mann-Hummel IIRC, and theirs has a $45+ "disposable rotor", to ensure that you don't get off Scot-free by just cleaning it out and putting it back together.