Rebuild or Replacement of Old Engine?

[Abo]

Hi, can anyone recommend a good 40 to 50 hp Diesel and gearbox for a Morgan 41. Both new and a rebuild.



Would it be better to get the old engine rebuilt? And if so how much would that cost approximately? The old one got sea water in it.


Thank you for reading, and for your recommendations.

[tkeithlu]

Good morning, Abo.

Do consider either a rebuild or an exact replacement. The designer didn't leave space for other engines, and all the connections - water, fuel, controls, electrics - will be in the wrong places. So will the engine mounts and the distance to the shaft.

[Oldwheels]

There are a couple of places that offer rebuilt marine engines and core exchange. It would be my choice.

[RaymondR]

You need to pull the head off and check how much damage the water has done. It might just be a matter of an extended overhaul rather than a complete rebuild.

[Lepke]

It's almost always cheaper to rebuild than replace.
I rebuilt a Perkins 4108 a few years ago. The parts and head machine work came to about $1300. Currently a short block is about $1300 and a engine kit about $500.

[Celestialsailor]

It would be helpful to know what the engine is now. Like Lepke said, Rebuild is cheaper. That said, nowadays trying to find someone with decent machining equipment and has years of knowledge can be hard to find and that they order "top quality" parts.

[Mickeyrouse]

Many of the Morgans used Westerbeke 107’s or 108’s.
I went through the “repair-replace” dilemma last year with a Westerbeke. The shop cost at a diesel shop that wasn’t “marine” was $2700 to replace all gaskets, bearings, rings, and a valve job. Quotes from” marine” shops were at least two times, plus a 3 month lead time, or they just wouldn’t quote until the engine was in their shop. A suitably-sized Yanmar was $16,000, also with a 3 month lead time. This is in the Houston market. I handled removal and installation, and the engine quotes were without installation.
Our previous engine was a Westerbeke 40. Westerbeke has used various designations on what I understand is the same basic block. In addition to the “40” name, they have also referred to it as “99”, and “4-107”. All of these are marinized versions of a Perkins 107 engine. Variations involved the marine gear attached, which could be a Warner, Paragon, and possibly VZ-Hurth. There may have been other gear options.
I always felt that the basic block lent itself to extreme longevity. The cylinder liners and valve seats are removable, which are two of the most wear-prone parts on an engine, not excluding the crankshaft. Though Perkins introduced the engine in the early 60’s, hundreds of thousands were built and distributed world-wide for use in anything a 40 horse diesel would be suitable for: stationary uses like pumps and compressors, construction equipment- even marine propulsion! Parts are generally available today if sourced as Perkins. Westerbeke, on the other hand, seems to be making efforts to make it difficult to buy parts- I think there may be only a couple “ stocking distributors” for Westerbeke, and they seem to be back-ordered or just out of stock on anything I need.
I would encourage re-building the Westerbeke, but I would also encourage getting the Perkins parts manual for the engine and getting parts sources lined up. Mack Boring and Mid-Atlantic Diesel are two that are on the East Coast. Diesel Parts Direct in Baton Rouge is also a source. I am sure there are others. It will be a LOT cheaper. Besides things like engine mounts, cooling water, fuel lines, exhaust, controls, etc. are already in place for that engine. A conversion to a different engine is a big job. It will be lengthy and expensive.
I see no advantage in a specialized marine engine shop, unless they have a service dock and capable crane. What makes a diesel “ marine” is the cooling system and gear. Once its out of the boat, it’s just an engine. Almost all marine propulsion diesels ever installed are marinized versions of general purpose engines.
I feel your pain. Good luck with what ever you decide.

[Abo]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

Good morning, Abo.

Do consider either a rebuild or an exact replacement. The designer didn't leave space for other engines, and all the connections - water, fuel, controls, electrics - will be in the wrong places. So will the engine mounts and the distance to the shaft.

Thanks for the advice on this tkeithlu, new here so still trying to get these replies right. Yes, I must agree, this was my biggest worry. I am used to working on instruments from planes and it has to be an identical replacement when working on those. Wondering how safe it is to sail a 40 footer with no engine if all the other systems are good.


Abo

[Abo]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

You need to pull the head off and check how much damage the water has done. It might just be a matter of an extended overhaul rather than a complete rebuild.

OK, sounds really good, I was under the impression that it had totally destroyed the engine, but that probably comes from non-mechanical people, they weren't on this forum, lol. I would much prefer to rebuild it myself, that way I will learn what makes it tick and how to repair other problems. Might also save myself a lot of money, and the reviews I have read are not very favorable to the newer engines available in my quick search.


Abo

[Abo]

Originally Posted by Lepke

It's almost always cheaper to rebuild than replace.
I rebuilt a Perkins 4108 a few years ago. The parts and head machine work came to about $1300. Currently a short block is about $1300 and a engine kit about $500.

That certainly sounds cheaper than $8K for something I am worried about. Good to hear from someone who has experience with a Perkins motor. This is a Perkins 57 horsepower@3000 RPM, Model 4.154M Diesel with low hours, but the low hours is questionable in my books, but if it is real then this engine is definitely worth trying to rebuild.

I would be interested in knowing if anyone knows of a normal, rather than marine diesel repair shop around the Tampa area so I can get any necessary machining done.


Abo

[Abo]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

It would be helpful to know what the engine is now. Like Lepke said, Rebuild is cheaper. That said, nowadays trying to find someone with decent machining equipment and has years of knowledge can be hard to find and that they order "top quality" parts.

Thank you Celestialsailor, it is a Perkins 4 cylinder, 57 horsepower@3000RPM, Model 4.154M, Diesel.

I would really like to find a machining shop and spares place around the TAMPA area so I can get it all together fairly quickly.

Might have to ditch all the clothes and just bring a pair of overalls and whatever tools I can fit in.

I should be able to pull it apart bit by bit and remove it this way, which would be a lot better, then I can put it on the hard for a day and reinstall and bolt down and do the finishing touches while it is in the water if necessary, could save a bit of cash to be spent on spares, which would help me to sleep at night, lol.


Abo

[Abo]

Originally Posted by Mickeyrouse

Many of the Morgans used Westerbeke 107’s or 108’s.
I went through the “repair-replace” dilemma last year with a Westerbeke. The shop cost at a diesel shop that wasn’t “marine” was $2700 to replace all gaskets, bearings, rings, and a valve job. Quotes from” marine” shops were at least two times, plus a 3 month lead time, or they just wouldn’t quote until the engine was in their shop. A suitably-sized Yanmar was $16,000, also with a 3 month lead time. This is in the Houston market. I handled removal and installation, and the engine quotes were without installation.
Our previous engine was a Westerbeke 40. Westerbeke has used various designations ...........

Thank you Mickeyrouse for your in-depth analysis of the situation and possible problems and solutions. I will start to chase down the Perkins parts manual for the engine and get the parts sources lined up as you say. Thanks for the Recommendations of the possible places to go to.

Do you, in your opinion feel that the gearbox will need a strip down and overhaul, my feelings are that it will. Also, any ideas you may have on what would be good to replace on the engine and in the gearbox, not having seen it. I am not worried about purchasing a few extras for spares as it is most probably a wise move to do this, can't stop and get spares in the middle of the Atlantic, lol.
Any other advice by yourself or anyone else would be much appreciated, as well as the loan of a chainblock if you are in the Tampa area. I have these at home but they are nowhere near to the boat which is a bit of a problem.


Thanks to all for their helpful advice, it is all appreciated so much.


Abo

[Lepke]

Where I get parts (www.parts4engines.com) for Perkins, a rebuild kit for the 4.154 is about $500 including all necessary internal parts and gaskets and seals. My experience with Perkins is if the oil was changed normally, the crank is still standard. You could mic it or use plastic gauge. The block doesn't need to leave the boat to rebuild, depends on space to work. The head can go to any decent rebuilder. Unless the injectors are new I usually get them rebuilt when I do the engine. If you can do the work, it should be less than $1500. You can find a workshop manual for about $30 on ebay.

The engine was used in tractors, skid steer loaders and other farm equipment. Doing a search might reveal other options at less money.

www.foleyengines.com sometimes has rebuilt blocks for exchange. They are the most expensive Perkins dealer I have ever dealt with. Everything they sell is available somewhere else for less money. I found it cheaper to ship from the UK than deal with Foley and I'm on the West Coast. Customer service is non-existent.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Abo

Thank you Celestialsailor, it is a Perkins 4 cylinder, 57 horsepower@3000RPM, Model 4.154M, Diesel.

I would really like to find a machining shop and spares place around the TAMPA area so I can get it all together fairly quickly.

Might have to ditch all the clothes and just bring a pair of overalls and whatever tools I can fit in.

I should be able to pull it apart bit by bit and remove it this way, which would be a lot better, then I can put it on the hard for a day and reinstall and bolt down and do the finishing touches while it is in the water if necessary, could save a bit of cash to be spent on spares, which would help me to sleep at night, lol.


Abo

Thanx for getting back to me. My friend has a Kelly-Peterson 44 which had the 4-154. He had limped it along for years and found it difficult getting parts for. He finally found a low hour Yanmar 4jH series with a turbo. I helped with the install which required re-vamping the engine beds. The vessel is a center cockpit which means a large engine room. Not sure if you have that luxury.

One thing I disagree with that has been mentioned earlier. The new generation of engines are considerable smaller in size and weight than all the sizes of Perkins (horsepower to horsepower).

[Mickeyrouse]

Originally Posted by Abo

Do you, in your opinion feel that the gearbox will need a strip down and overhaul, my feelings are that it will.


Abo

Since I don’t know what gear you have, I can’t say. If you have the Paragon, the reverse gear shift linkage has a habit of failing- happened to me twice. There are two of them, and they are stamped and drilled mild steel. A capable machine shop could make them, but Paragon parts ( if they can be found) would be cheaper. Paragon is out of business and parts are, shall we say, scarce. It’s sure a lot easier to attend to it at thus point rather than later. If it’s coming out and you can find parts, I wouldn’t pass up the opportunity. But then, that’s the definition of “mission creep.”