Repower costs... what am I missing?

[mowerandy]

Originally Posted by captlloyd

Secret of success ? Can’t you tell, low overhead.

Yep - this! Keep that overhead as close to zero as possible, and you can laugh at patchy business. Becomes impractical tho for a squillion reasons, once you start hiring your own staff rather than subbies...

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by GILow

Seems a similar ratio to what others are relating.

What “additional” work would you say was done? New exhaust etc?

Custom mounts built to accomodate angle and width. Reuse exhaust. New panel. New transmission. Done by a Florida Yanmar dealer.
I thought the install cost was very fair.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Custom mounts built to accomodate angle and width. Reuse exhaust. New panel. New transmission. Done by a Florida Yanmar dealer.

I thought the install cost was very fair.

Ok... the transmission will surely have accounted for a lot of the “installation” price.

I would not call that an installation cost.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by GILow

Ok... the transmission will surely have accounted for a lot of the “installation” price.

I would not call that an installation cost.

I gave the total cost of installation and also called out the part that was the engine. The tranny was part of the engine cost. So engine was 7.5k and install labor and miscellaneous was usd5k.
This was done in place where I did not have a car or any knowledge of local machine shops and suppliers, and the weekly berth cost was very high . No way I could have done the work in that time and I bet the overall cost to me if I had done the work wouldn't have been less once you include the berth costs, old engine deposing, heavy tool rental, car rental...... Plus I'd would have had to pay for installinstallion inspection to maintain the warranty.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I gave the total cost of installation and also called out the part that was the engine. The tranny was part of the engine cost. So engine was 7.5k and install labor and miscellaneous was usd5k.

This was done in place where I did not have a car or any knowledge of local machine shops and suppliers, and the weekly berth cost was very high . No way I could have done the work in that time and I bet the overall cost to me if I had done the work wouldn't have been less once you include the berth costs, old engine deposing, heavy tool rental, car rental...... Plus I'd would have had to pay for installinstallion inspection to maintain the warranty.

Right.

I read your previous post as suggesting the transmission was part of the 5K.

Not questioning your economics, you’ll have a perfectly clear picture, just curious to see if any of the extras suggested by others were included in the 5K.

Apparently not, aside from fitting the new panel (surely included in the engine cost) and building the engine mounts it seems it was just a case of getting the old one out and hooking the new one up. Much like my situation, though I will keep my engine panel which will save me some work.

[mvweebles]

This thread reminds me of when I was a full time delivery skipper. I quickly figured out that Sailors were a losing proposition because so many were miffed at paying more than their unrealistically low-cost expectations. Many seemed to think I was screwing them because they wanted to pay $2/nm for captain, crew, fuel, and provisions on a boat that was barely capable of 125 nms/day. And when they'd find a Wharf rat that would do the work, they'd complain their boat was left somewhere other than their destination.

[Island Time O25]

About three years ago I was faced with a dead Universal 5411 on a 35 year old 28 footer. Because everything else was in good shape, including practically new crispy sails, I decided to repower. Of course immediately I was facing $10 to $12K estimate for a new engine and install. This of course did not make any economic sense on a boat that after all that work would still be worth $8 to 10K at best.

So I turned to my buddy the diesel mechanic who agreed to be paid his regular wage he was getting at his marina engine maintenance job which at the time was $25/hr. I got a used Yanmar 2QM15 from my boat yard for $750 and that included using their crane to get the Universal off and Yanmar on. Although the Yanmar came with a control panel it was not as nice as my Universal one so I kept the original.

I did the repositioning and re-glassing of the engine mounts myself, as I had some intermittent experience working with epoxy on previous boats. That took me a day and half but a pro would have done in in under a day, probably in half a day. I was proud of those mounts and really surprised that after the inspection by my buddy the diesel mechanic he pronounced them as sturdy as factory made.

My buddy's labor came to 30 hours, $750. That included disconnecting and removing the old engine, testing the new to me Yanmar, and having found a sticky starter, taking that apart, re-oiling everything inside and making sure it worked like a clock, painting the Yanmar and installing it, including aligning the shaft plate, etc. I installed another, Yanmar specked prop by myself, about an hour's worth of work.

For the mat/cloth and epoxy used for the mounts I had leftovers from previous jobs in past seasons, just purchased fresh hardener (about $10 from a local carbon mast maker where a friend used to work) to make sure I'm not doing the glassing twice. Apparently, according to my other friend the boat maker, tightly closed epoxy base will last years. It's the hardener which gets stale after about a year or two, even if tightly closed. Although I can report good results on non-critical epoxy jobs using 5 to 7 year old hardener, just takes a little longer to harden. But I digress.

My total expense for this engine swap was about $1,500 as is or about $1,800-$2,000 if I had to pay for the materials which I had left over from previous jobs. Have to admit that I was very apprehensive starting the job as my buddy was only available on weekends, and not before or after certain dates. My biggest fear was to be left with a half finished job in the middle of the summer. But it was all done in 2 weekends in June and I splashed well before July 4th target date.

$1,510 vs $10K-$12K. You decide.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by GILow

Right.

I read your previous post as suggesting the transmission was part of the 5K.

Not questioning your economics, you’ll have a perfectly clear picture, just curious to see if any of the extras suggested by others were included in the 5K.

Apparently not, aside from fitting the new panel (surely included in the engine cost) and building the engine mounts it seems it was just a case of getting the old one out and hooking the new one up. Much like my situation, though I will keep my engine panel which will save me some work.

Yep, only other 'parts' were miscellaneous items needed to be fabricated to move items like exhaust and engine controls from one side of the engine to the other - there's always something.

[RaymondR]

Ahh, Ann, they have a plethora of techniques to handle "guidance" and you generally have to accept their way of doing things and hold your peace.

On my first build I used a lot of "professional" labour reserving only overall project management for myself. I pretty well ended up dissatisfied with much of what eventuated and eventually realized that there was often less work in just doing it myself. It was either done to my satisfaction or I knew exactly who was to blame.

[jimbunyard]

I'll do it, if you help with the heavy work, for 4500.00 or 30/hr, whichever is less...

Think the ticket to Australia might nip this in the bud though.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

I'll do it, if you help with the heavy work, for 4500.00 or 30/hr, whichever is less...



Think the ticket to Australia might nip this in the bud though.

That’s a good deal I reckon. And if you SAIL here it will save on the airfare. See you in about six months then?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by captlloyd

By the way I have been in business myself for 40 years, I know business. Secret of success ? Can’t you tell, low overhead.

As long as it's a business that requires few if any employees or other background stuff (building, tools, insurance, licensing, taxes, etc...), that is very much true. If a marina allows an independent unlicensed mechanic to just show up and work, they can beat out the shop rates by a mile.

Once you have to buy a marina, build sheds but an array of tools, keep insurance, pay staff, etc......you need to watch your overhead but you won't be able to compete with an independent guy not paying for all these items.

Most marinas are well aware of this and limit independent contractors or take a cut from them while also checking their insurance and licensing.

Expecting a large operation to compete on overhead is unrealistic.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by GILow

All I had was a ten year old Range Rover and a laptop.

The laptop may have been older than the car.

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by GILow

Yeah, yeah, I get it. So basically, what you are suggesting is that the costs are mostly the extras.

I’m good with that. That’s discretionary when you are a DIYer. Not so much when you are a pro.

I just wondered if I’d missed something else, but probably not.

Not many boat owners seem to have advanced DIY skills or the array of tools and equipment required to change an engine, you are definitely in the skilled minority.
I can perhaps help to explain the high costs incurred by professional mechanics after being involved in numerous repowers myself.
If the owner is living aboard during the work, it invariably takes longer, sometimes a lot longer.
Access needs to be facilitated so it’s very cost effective for the owner to clear the workspace, remove biminis, cockpit furniture , electronics, cover cabin soles and brightwork with cardboard or thin plywood etc. Also it’s wise to be near to where the mechanics workshop is and not, say , on an island with a Marina and haulout. Caterpillar; Cummins and MTU charge labor from clock on to clock off at the workshop and usually send 2 guys so there could be a lot of dead time there.
It’s often quite difficult to get an engine to an island.
There is a wealth of unforeseen problems as a repower progresses depending on the vessel construction.
1. Engine beds, easy on metal boats but on Grp beds the timber core is often waterlogged and requires repair.
2. Exhaust system. Yanmar’s require larger exhaust hoses, hull fitting and Aqualocks, a 75mm exhaust can take as long to install as the engine.
3. Propeller shaft. Needs to be closely examined for wear, trueness and corrosion. Consider Aquamet for higher torque or HP.
4. Shaft seal. Repack and replace rubber connection or upgrade to dripless
5. Shaft coupling. Volvo cunningly reversed the register on their gearboxes so either an adapter or a new half coupling is needed.
6. Propeller. Hurth Zf mechanical gearboxes reverse the shaft rotation in ahead so if your previous gear ran the shaft same as engine rotation in ahead then a change needs to be made.
7. Alternators. If your old engine had a big Balmar or Delcotron, that will need to be grafted onto the new engine.
8. Crankshaft driven accessories. The days of attaching a multi belt pulley to drive cat pumps, emergency bilge pumps, hydraulic pumps and multiple alternators to modern engine crankshafts have passed, certainly on the smaller Yanmar’s and Kubotas so a system rethink may be needed.
There is a lot more that needs to be taken into account but you’ve done well to stay awake if you got this far, it’s hard to find people who are as interested in these things as I am[emoji622]

[CelestialMelody]

I know in my case, going from a Perkins to a Yanmar, the biggest challenge on my Passport 42 was going from 2" exhaust to 3 inch. There were bulkhead openings to enlarge, and a larger muffler to fabricate and fit in, all of which is man hours=$$$$