Starter Button on Yanmar Gauge Cluster

[Jack Long]

According to the troubleshooting guide I was using in my marine diesel book by Calder it appears the starter button is working intermittently.

Is this is "take it apart, clean it, and hope" thing? Can you buy just the button? Should I be prepared to wire in some home designed switch?

Thanks,
J

[GordMay]

Although the P.B. isn't really a repairable item, any weather-tight push-button that will fit (the hole) should work as a replacement.
The more robust (physically and electrically - ie: amperage), the better.

[Vasco]

Jack,

Yanmar is well known for its starting problems. Most folks think its the button but it usually isn't. For your info I'm reproducing my Yanmar starting problem notes that I've garnered over the years. Unfortunately I cannot attribute them as I've copied them from various boards. All I can say is that I am not the author.








PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:41 pm Post subject: hard starting Reply with quote
The problem with aging Yanmars not engaging the starter is the wiring. Adding a relay to the starter solves the problem. You can use a continuous duty marine solenoid from West Marine or pick one up at NAPA for the purpose.

The solenoid should have four posts, two high amp, two low amp. On the low amp circuit, connect the starter key wire to one post, and ground the second post. Enaging the key will trip this circuit. On the high amp side, connect a #8 guage wire from the solenoid to the battey/alternator post on the starter motor. Then from the second high amp post run a #8 guage wire back to the post on the starter where the wire from the key originally came from.

Engaging the key will trip the low amp circuit which in turm engages the high amp connection which gives you a very healthy current to the starter solenoid.

Another thing you can do is add a remote start switch (for example near the engine) by connecting a second switch (make sure it is fused) beyween the battery side of the high amp circuit on the solenoid and the key side of the low amp circuit.
Back to top

mjs2
Guest






PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 12:05 pm Post subject: starter problem Reply with quote
I had the same problem--each time I heard a click from the starter, but it wouldn't start turning the motor. I had to hit the start button multiple times, and eventually it would start. Last year I bought a new starter and replaced it, but still had the same problem. Then I read some of the other posts that mentioned that the wires were not sufficiently thick to handle the current from the switch to the solenoid, and they recommended putting in a second solenoid. I found it hard to believe that this would work because the wire seems to be around 12 gauge already which you would think is sufficient, but I figured I'd try it and I purchased a solenoid model COLE HERSEE 24117-01-BP 201337 from west marine, and installed it yesterday. I used thick cables 4 gauge from the battery switch to the solenoid, and 10 gauge from the solenoid to the starter (although you may want to go to 4 gauge for both). Then tested it 4 times-- each time the engine started on the first try. So this fixed my problem.
Back to top
Sorry to continue this thread on the Yanmar starting problem, but I'm 12 volt challenged as well, and a bit confused on how to rewire the problem away.

My 1988 IP31 has the 3GM30F engine, and I've had this oft-described starting problem for most of this boats life. I'm in agreement that the under spec'd wiring harness is the problem, and I would throw in the cheap 30 amp fuse holder, that appears to be 16 gauge wire between the 10 or 12 gauge wiring running from the key switch to the starter solenoid. I bought the Cole Hersee #24117 solenoid, and after tracing my wiring from starter button, key switch, alternator and starter solenoid, and then reviewing the wiring setup from "dgrosz" (4/23/05), and "mjs2" (5/26/05), I'm still confused.

"mjs2" is running a wire from the "battery switch" (?) to the solenoid. I assume he meant the starter key switch. "dgrosz" describes grounding the CH solenoid on one low post, then connect the other low post to the starter key (assume at the red wire post). Then from the CH high post, run a wire to the starter solenoid post where the current red fused wire and battery cable terminal are attached. That would replace the red wire running up to the starter solenoid, via the questionable wiring harness and fuse connector. He then connects the other high post on the CH solenoid to the alternator battery ("BAT") terminal. I see were this takes the red wire and its fuse from the wiring harness out of the mix. I also assume that the existing starter solenoid mounted on the starter stays in place. Neither really states that. I assume the CH solenoid and heavier wire (I'll use 8 gauge) is doing nothing more than to get away from the wiring harness (at least the red wire key-to-starter solenoid part of it). If I'm correct up to this point, it would appear to me that I need to remove the red wire running from the alternator/BAT terminal to the battery power terminal on the existing starter solenoid. Do I have this right ? Are there different wiring harnesses by boat manufacturer ? (Note, a 1987 Cal 33 in my boat yard has same engine and wiring harness, and the same problem) If I'm wrong, can someone describe the setup simply for a boat with the Yanmar panel with a starter button and key switch ? Up here in RI, I will not be firing up the engine for another couple of weeks, and would like to avoid blowing out something.

Starter switch wiring...

This seems to be a common problem on Yanmars. I have it from time-to-time on my 4 cylinder 4JH-TE. I have done a whole bunch of research on it, and the general consensus is that the problem is caused by the wiring to the starter solenoid.
Yanmar starter solenoids have two windings, a high current coil that pulls the solenoid in (and then is turned off), and a lower current "holding" coil that holds the plunger in place. The result is a brief high current spike that happens as you push the starter button.
If the wiring to the starter button is too long, too smaller gage, or the starter switch has developed some contact resistance, the added resistance will not allow sufficient current through the solenoid to pull-in adequately during the initial current spike (Ohm's Law).
The general consensus (which I have not yet adopted) is to install an automotive type relay close to the engine, and use heavier gage wire from the battery, through the relay contacts, to the starter solenoid. In other words, the starter switch merely closes the relay, which then supplies the initial current surge through a low resistance path.
Whether this is your problem I can't say, but there are numerous threads around on various forums that indicate that this is the fix.

It's on my "to-do" list...

For the last few years I have had an intermittent starting problem. The boat would start every time while at the dock, while hooked into shore power. However, when out on the water for an hour or so, the boat may start or may not. I would then shut down all instruments, fridge, cabin lights or anything else that was ?on?. After a few minutes the boat might start or might not start. I started keeping track of temperature, humidity, length of time off the dock, etc. ? I couldn?t find a pattern. It was very frustrating; a few times I would have to wait 15 minutes before it would start.

I had the same problem this weekend in Raritan Bay, filled to the gills with fishing boats and then the wind died off, the perfect time to start the engine and dodge the always moving fishing boats. When I pushed the start button ? nothing! I had even removed the power for the fans and dash ? figuring I would get more power to the starter solenoid?still nothing. I was done; it had to be fixed ASAP.

I read several dozen articles regarding this problem, some of which suggested grinding down the pins on the starter and starter solenoid. Others, suggested it was due to corrosion on the wires in the starting loop, key switch, momentary on (push button) and the wire leading to the starter solenoid. I found no corrosion and replaced both the key start and push button ? no success, I still had starting problems. There were still more articles blaming the problem on the batteries - new AGM batteries installed and I still have the problem....

The solution: replace the 12 awg wire with a 10 awg wire from the key switch to the push button and replace the second 12 awg from push button to the starter solenoid. It was real easy and once you have all the necessary replacement parts, it takes about 15 minutes to fix.

From the key switch there is a 10 awg wire coming in, on the other terminal there are three wires, a solid red, red with black stripe and white. The red with black stripe and solid red are for powering the fans and dash (alarm, lights and gauges). The white runs to the momentary on with another white 12 awg wire, from the second terminal, running to the starter solenoid. The first step was to fish, using an electricians ?fish tape?, the wire through the console to the aft section of the boat. After fishing the wire thru, the connections were simple, 4 10-12 awg connectors with 8 awg rings.

I left the boat on for about an hour, with everything ?on? (water pumps, anchor lights, all cabin lights, radio?s, hot water heater, autopilot, etc). The boat started three times with ease. The true test will come later this week when I am out for a two hour sail and she either starts or doesn?t on the first try!

GM Starting Problems QED

As I had documented in an earlier post, I had intermittent starting problems, when you hit the push button to start the engine, nothing would happen. The solution was to replace the 12AWG wires from the key switch to the push button and from the push button to the starter solenoid with 10AWG wires.

I had the boat out recently and the problem seems to be resolved. I actually started the boat several times during a recent cruise. It’s really nice to know that you engine is there right when you need it.

Chris - the 8AWG ring connector is a size measurement – you have a 10AWG wire connection with an 8AWG ring connector, if the ring connector is to big you won’t get “full” contact on the keyed and push button wire posts.

Hope this helps a bit.

[never monday]

how old is the Yanmar in question?

[Jack Long]

Ooollldddd...

1981 I think.

There was a step in the Calder book where I would press the button- get no response- then jump the power post to the signal post from the button and it would go. It would also spark and scare the **** out of me.

[Chief Engineer]

Check your ground wires.

It is always good to have a remote starter switch (the kind with clips on them) they come in quite handy and it avoids the spark/sh*t thing.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Chief Engineer

Check your ground wires.
It is always good to have a remote starter switch (the kind with clips on them) they come in quite handy and it avoids the spark/sh*t thing.

Available at $10 - $20; and useful in many other troubleshooting applications.

[never monday]

Search here. I've posted several times how to clean and repair the contacts in the wiring harness. this is a common problem witht he older Yanmar harnesses. Pre 1999ish

[Inlet Marine Services]

We see this problem alot as a Yanmar dealer in the small engines. The electrical goes from the starter to panel then back to the starter. Over time voltage is lost through resistance in the wiring through corrosion. Easy fix, we install a simple 30 amp relay, relays are normally 4 pin, just unplug the wire from the solenoid and connect it to the engauge ment side of the relay. Relays take very little current to turn on, see resistance lowers the ability for current to flow. The load to engauge the starter is done over the relay. We mount it next to the starter so the wires are short. If anyone want a wiring diagram and some part # from Carquest just e-mail me. inletmarineservices@comcast.net

[chetvaldes]

I second the relay solution- I install them all the time. Most new engines come stock with them. Also these common ISO type relays are a good inexpensive replacement for the stop solenoids when they get destroyed by raw water dripping on them from the exhaust elbow.
Chet

[sailorboy1]

I thought I had same type of problem last year. But the switch was find and it was corrosion in wire from the switch tothe starter at the harness. I just cut it oput and put in a new sectionof wire.

[laika]

I just resolved the intermittent starting problem with my Yanmar 3gm30f (2004) by running a new #10 wire from the start push button straight to the solenoid, as other's have described. It's the small white wire on the side terminal of the solenoid. Previously I had the solenoid "click" with no engagement of the starter. It usually took a handful of button pushes before the starter would go, if it would go at all. The PO had it in mind that it was a ground issue and, having traced all the ground connections, had lived with the problem for years. However, the problem had been getting progressively worse.

Anyway, just wanted to throw my solution into the mix here. Very simple fix and did not have to add to the complexity of the system. In my case, the push button wires were welded to the button terminals so I just cut the old wire a few inches from the terminals and spliced the new wire from there. Also cleaned all the connections to the solenoid. The #10 wire appears to be more than sufficient for the application.

[Beersmith]

any particular reason people install the relay vs. just replacing the wire like laika did in the post above?

[Beersmith]

bump for my question above

I think I understand that it might be easier to just install the relay instead of running an all new #10 wire. I am in the position of rewiring my engine after a full rebuild, so the options are wide open to me.

It seems that just putting in the #10 wire would be the best solution given my circumstances, but I am curious if the relay has more merit for other reasons.

Thanks

[laika]

Hi Beersmith,

Not too sure about the relay cuz I don't have one installed and never really looked at them, but it sounds like it takes less current to engage the starter and might be a touch more bulletproof. I don't believe the solenoids are very prone to failure tho either. I have certainly not had any issues since I re-wired mine last year.

To my eye, the most important thing you can do to avoid electrical issues with the Yanmar is pure and simple: get rid of all the original Yanmar wiring wherever possible!

I rewired my entire engine last year along with the solenoid wire. I ripped out the untinned Yanmar wiring harness and ran my own system using bus bars. Hard to believe the wire Yanmar used, at least on my 2004 3gm, was so poor. After less than 10 years in a clean engine environment with dry bilges, the wiring harness just crumbled in my hands.

I also found there to be a lot of harness wires that were just floating around, not being used.