Starter Motor problem - not sure where to start.

[Jim Jones]

Got an issue with the starter on a D2-55 - its not turning over at all. I cant hear anything at all happening at the starter - I would have thought I would be able to hear the solenoid trying to activate.

I have just got to the boat after it has been sitting at the marina for a few months without being used/started. The motor starting battery was flat. I charged it up over night and when i checked the voltage with a multi meter the voltage was reading 12.9v - after a while it had settled to 12.6v. This should be enough to get the starter to turnover.

The control panel comes on, the oil pressure and temp gauge lights come on, so there is power to the control panel. We took the cover off an electrical box attached to the side of the motor and found 2 relays in there. We can feel the relays "Click" when we activate the start switch, so again power is getting that far.

Tried shorting out the main terminals on the starter with a thick screw driver but nothing happens at all.

Could it be the battery is just not strong enough to kick the starter over even though it was on charge for 12 hours? It could have been flat for 2 months or more and that is a death sentence for a lead acid battery.

Might it be a bad earth connection from the battery to the engine block (or wherever the neg is attached to the motor/starter)

A guy here at the marina who is a fitter (so not a mech - but close enough) thinks that its the brushes in the starter are sticking and not making contact. That seems odd though as the boat came in on the engine, so why would the starter brushes just suddenly "stick"? lack of use in the last months ?

Any ideas on where to look next gratefully received.

[sailormed]

Take a pair of starter battery cables used for starting a car with dead battery from another car, take out your battery and put it next to your engine. Try to start the engine with the cables. If it starts, you will have to look at your cables in the boat, otherwise you saved yourself a lot of unnessary time troubleshooting.

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by sailormed

Take a pair of starter battery cables used for starting a car with dead battery from another car, take out your battery and put it next to your engine. Try to start the engine with the cables. If it starts, you will have to look at your cables in the boat, otherwise you saved yourself a lot of unnessary time troubleshooting.

I have a set of those cables here in the boat. We call them "Jump" cables here.

So next take out the battery and connect the battery with the "jump" cables to .....what ? Directly to the starter ?

Edit: - A quick Google on this came up with this.....

"With the ignition turned off and the transmission in "park" -- and with all due care -- connect one end of the red/positive jumper cable to the positive terminal of the battery. Touch the other end of the red cable to the positive terminal on the starter motor. The starter should spin/crank the engine."

Is this what you meant that I should try ?

[Jim Cate]

^^^
Yes, right to the starter main terminal and a nearby ground point. It would help if you had a voltmeter on the battery whilst doing the test... see if it drops to say< 8 V under heavy load. If it does, likely t he battery is a goner.

Jim

[sailormed]

If you have an alternator be sure it can charge a battery otherwise you will fry the diodes.
First step connect the battery neg to the engine bloc.
Close the cooling water intake seacock to prevent flooding the engine when trying to start.
Make contact with the positif of the battery to the starter engine + (big spark!!!)
Starter should turn over and start the engine.
Remove the bat + from starter engine as soon as it starts.
OPEN SEACOCK when engine is running!
Now you now the battery, starter motor and engine are OK

[Jim Jones]

Thanks Jim.

I think the battery is probably finished. It has sat for some months without being used to start the engine, so has been self discharging as batteries do over that time.

I just checked the voltage of the start battery again - its reading 12.81v - so this is the batteries resting voltage. Seems to be holding voltage OK.

Could the voltage be as high as 12.8v resting but the battery still be not strong enough to turn over the starter ?

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by sailormed

If you have an alternator be sure it can charge a battery otherwise you will fry the diodes.
First step connect the battery neg to the engine bloc.
Close the cooling water intake seacock to prevent flooding the engine when trying to start.
Make contact with the positif of the battery to the starter engine + (big spark!!!)
Starter should turn over and start the engine.
Remove the bat + from starter engine as soon as it starts.
OPEN SEACOCK when engine is running!
Now you now the battery, starter motor and engine are OK

Hi Sailormed,

Yes there is an alternator connected up, so good tip to make sure a battery is in the system it can put its charge into.

So I leave the main terminals to the battery connected as they always are in normal use AND THEN use the Jump cables to connect the black (Neg -) to the engine block somewhere (probably better if close to the starter I suppose?) , then connect the red (Pos +) to the starter motor positive post which will give a BIG spark. The starter should then activate and spin the engine over resulting in the engine starting ?

Before doing this, close the cooling water intake seacock while trying to start it then if the engine starts open the seacock so cooling water can flow

Have I got that sequence right ?

Thanks for the advice

[Rumrace]

Sounds like not enough amps but starter motors require more as they age. Could be a dead spot on the solinode and a small turn and it will fire. Not one component in a starting system likes to sit. Corrosion starts everywhere there isn’t no-ox grease. Clean the battery top with baking soda and water. A dirty battery conducts and dies quicker. Terminals as mentioned. I’ve read a battery looses more or less 1% per day. Seems about right.
Before I switched to lithium I brought my batteries home put them on charging banks and ran an old car stereo in the barn all winter. Batteries live a full life if taken and stored with a draw.
The lithium run golden rods de humidifier security cameras all winter. Very low demand on a single old solar panel. It even knows when the panel is buried in snow.
I’d be checking the condition of your fuel next.

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

Sounds like not enough amps but starter motors require more as they age. Could be a dead spot on the solinode and a small turn and it will fire. Not one component in a starting system likes to sit. Corrosion starts everywhere there isn’t no-ox grease. Clean the battery top with baking soda and water. A dirty battery conducts and dies quicker. Terminals as mentioned. I’ve read a battery looses more or less 1% per day. Seems about right.
Before I switched to lithium I brought my batteries home put them on charging banks and ran an old car stereo in the barn all winter. Batteries live a full life if taken and stored with a draw.
The lithium run golden rods de humidifier security cameras all winter. Very low demand on a single old solar panel. It even knows when the panel is buried in snow.
I’d be checking the condition of your fuel next.

Yes I suspect the battery is not up to the job. As mentioned it has sat for some months without being used - which means the engine has not turned over in some months so that implies no charge going back into the start battery. A lead acid battery does not last long once it gets below full charge and is left to keep self discharging - its a death spiral for the battery.

What I am not getting though is why the battery charged up to 12.9v and is resting at 12.8v if it is no good? If the plates in the battery have sulphated then it shouldn't be able to accept a charge - yet its resting at 12.8v

[mcswain29]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

Before I switched to lithium I brought my batteries home put them on charging banks and ran an old car stereo in the barn all winter. Batteries live a full life if taken and stored with a draw.
The lithium run golden rods de humidifier security cameras all winter. Very low demand on a single old solar panel. It even knows when the panel is buried in snow.
I’d be checking the condition of your fuel next.

Thread drift - curious for my own eventual battery build what cells/BMS/charge controller are you using to charge LiFePo4 over winter storage months when its below 0oC or 32oF...?

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by mcswain29

Thread drift - curious for my own eventual battery build what cells/BMS/charge controller are you using to charge LiFePo4 over winter storage months when its below 0oC or 32oF...?

You cant charge LiFePo4 at 0c or below. You would need heater pads under the cells. Of course this bit wont help you but this is where LTO cells shine - can be charged at up to about -30c. But LTO is expensive and heavy.

[DougR]

The two relays in the electrical box, one is the glow plug relay, and the other is for the starter motor. Make sure that the starter relay is actually energizing and feeding current to the starter solenoid. The starter relay in the box is the one with the red/yellow wires connected to it. The glow plug relay is the one with the orange wires connected to it.


I doubt that storing the engine for a few months would cause any problems with the relays or starter motor. I have winterized and stored my D2-55 for 5 or 6 months each year for the last 10 years and never had a hiccup.

A little work with a VOM will point you in the right direction.

[skipperpete]

First, make sure the engine can be rotated manually, it’s good practice after any extended layup.
There is a distinct possibility that your engine is “above ground” with an insulated earth so the usual troubleshooting and jump starting techniques won’t necessarily work.
Alubat went to a fair bit of trouble to get the electrics isolated. The engine has no big fat negative attached to the engine block but IF IT DOES, it will only be a momentary connection via a second starting solenoid.

[mcswain29]

Originally Posted by Jim Jones

You cant charge LiFePo4 at 0c or below. You would need heater pads under the cells. Of course this bit wont help you but this is where LTO cells shine - can be charged at up to about -30c. But LTO is expensive and heavy.

Yes that was the basis of my question... I was just wondering about Rumrace's setup - i.e. how to run security cameras and a 110v dehumidifier for the winter - from a lithium bank being charged by solar, over the course of an Ontario, Canada winter.



I'm in a similar geographic predicament where I can't get to the (winter stored) boat all the time, but it can't stay plugged in indefinitely to maintain a security camera hub, or anything 110v for that matter.