Suzuki DF 9.9 runs then not

[Rumrace]

I think the Suzuki suffered no worse than any outboard would have. The salt gets under the cowling and collects and took out the thin walls of the fuel line. Was a cheap sacrifice and a lesson in maintenance
I’m a fan of Ducati Triumph Harley Indian not Japanese bikes at all. That said I’ve Great respect for Yanmar Yamaya. I’ve. Always assumed Suzuki deserved their quiet market share.
I can’t stand anything two stroke. Was a bad idea from Day one. That said I worked on a pals 23 year old Yamaha 30hp 3cyclinder two stroke. Has hours which could wound a diesel. Runs beautiful now. Has a perfect linkage between the carbs. The reed valves were strong cleaned right up. The ports were line honed at the factory. It’s obviously produced more power the 30hp at one time.
Modern oil and 1999 oil mix recommendation are alittle rich so tweaked it down and replaced every single piece of rubber on the motor. Fuel filter was full of resin. Control cables never adjusted. The original spark plug wires you test with ohms resistance and I was amazed they transferred a spark. Yamaha has no replacement wire so I made up a silicone set for it.
I took the old piece of junk for a wet run with cowling off. I think the carbs are mikuni and they set up perfect.
What a great old motor.
But it never saw salt water.

[BBill]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

On a cold engine the indicator light stays on for a few seconds at start-up, then goes out. If it comes back on after a few minutes which could be as much as 10 at idle/low rpm to a minute or less under high rpm and the engine running very rough it has gone into limp home mode. It will run in limp home mode for 3 minutes then stop. It will restart and run for about 30 second at what seems like normal at least at idle and/or run in limp home mode for another 3 minutes before shutting down. If it follows this pattern it is overheating. The light has only two functions, oil pressure and temperature. Temperature can have two modes that trigger it. Absolute temperature and rate of temperature increase. I know this because that is what the diagnostic software told me when the block was clogged. If you remove the thermostat you will find crystals coating the back of it and also on the zinc if you remove that. This is a key indicator that the cooling passages are clogged. I know large Suzuki's are very popular and I have not heard of this problem on them. I suspect it has something to do with the size of the cooling passages and the alloy they use. Does anyone know if large Suzukies have a warning in the manual about using them in salt water?

The 2022 DF60A manual says to fresh water flush after operation in muddy, brackish or salt water and rinse the exterior...and if you do not flush the passages salt can cause corrosion and shorten the engine life.

[lestersails]

hi All
An update. As noted above, I removed and disassembled the fuel pump to discover corrosion inside of it and in fact oozing out of the housing at the cover with a rusted screw. However, I did not find any membranes of any kind in this fuel pump so it seems this fuel pump is different than others. Since it was corroded, I replaced it with a new one ($260). Same problem. Could well be that that corrosion is now downstream of the fuel pump in the lines or the injectors and I would assume that that no fuel injector cleaner can remove iron oxide. I was unable to get the red light to stop flashing with the suggested reset. Since I don't have a PC and thus can't do the diagnostics myself I cried 'uncle' and took it in to a shop. I will let you know what they say.
Thanks for all the tips.
I sure hope this is not a lost cause. So far I am in about $600-700 on this motor. The old "throwing good money after bad" thing is starting to creep up on me...

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by lestersails

Hey BYD - it is an electric start and with electric tilt (yes, I know, overkill and heavy for an auxiliary for a 22 foot boat).
yes the pump stream (which I have now learned is called a telltale - which I thought was only a sail air flow indicator!)

As you can see it can cost a lot to throw parts at these engines when it comes to run ability of computerized fuel management.
There's quite a few sensors in these Suzukis.
We always scan and address coded issues first .
Codes don't nessessarily tell you the actual problem, but more often associate symptoms with out of parameter values of the sensors involved.
Example: a code that may come up is a lean condition in the exaust, this condition can be caused by at least 3 problems, low fuel pump pressure, clogged fuel filter, clogged injectors, none of which is coded as a fuel pressure problem, only a lean condition.
So, it takes a bit more info to really find the problem.
For this mentioned issue, we would first check for proper pump pressure using a fuel pressure guage.
Then move to trailing components.
Not all computerized fuel management controls are as sophisticated as others either.
It really is best to have these engines serviced by a professional shop if you don't have access to special equipment.
Please do let us know the results.
Boatyarddog

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by lestersails

hi All
An update. As noted above, I removed and disassembled the fuel pump to discover corrosion inside of it and in fact oozing out of the housing at the cover with a rusted screw. However, I did not find any membranes of any kind in this fuel pump so it seems this fuel pump is different than others. Since it was corroded, I replaced it with a new one ($260). Same problem. Could well be that that corrosion is now downstream of the fuel pump in the lines or the injectors and I would assume that that no fuel injector cleaner can remove iron oxide. I was unable to get the red light to stop flashing with the suggested reset. Since I don't have a PC and thus can't do the diagnostics myself I cried 'uncle' and took it in to a shop. I will let you know what they say.
Thanks for all the tips.
I sure hope this is not a lost cause. So far I am in about $600-700 on this motor. The old "throwing good money after bad" thing is starting to creep up on me...

No I don't think it's a lost cause.
DIY repair on any computerized engine requires some knowledge of the system and tools to address it.
I'm sure the shop will be able to fix this.
Boatyarddog

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by Boatyarddog

No I don't think it's a lost cause.
DIY repair on any computerized engine requires some knowledge of the system and tools to address it.
I'm sure the shop will be able to fix this.
Boatyarddog

Thanks for the encouragement! It is in their hands as of Tuesday. I will definitely follow up.

[purvisgs]

(Other than the red light)- Sounded initially much more like a fuel issue to me. Especially since it seems like you put old "clarified" fuel back in, or new fuel but black coating still on tank. Should've run it off a temporary/different small tank at this point. And adding an extra heavy dose of quality injector cleaner or sea foam to 1 or 2 gallons of fuel at that point would've been worth a shot. Additionally, adding an extra inline fuel filter wouldn't hurt, the clear cheap inline filters can show you what's going on as far as particles or sucking air etc.

You can buy a DIY type $10-20 setup online that attaches to a can of spray carb cleaner for a rudimentary check of spray pattern /flush fuel injectors.

The suzuki cable for about $75 would be my next step rather than throwing more parts at it.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by purvisgs

(Other than the red light)- Sounded initially much more like a fuel issue to me. Especially since it seems like you put old "clarified" fuel back in, or new fuel but black coating still on tank. Should've run it off a temporary/different small tank at this point. And adding an extra heavy dose of quality injector cleaner or sea foam to 1 or 2 gallons of fuel at that point would've been worth a shot. Additionally, adding an extra inline fuel filter wouldn't hurt, the clear cheap inline filters can show you what's going on as far as particles or sucking air etc.

You can buy a DIY type $10-20 setup online that attaches to a can of spray carb cleaner for a rudimentary check of spray pattern /flush fuel injectors.

The suzuki cable for about $75 would be my next step rather than throwing more parts at it.

Hi
Sorry if my prior note was confusing but it was NOT old fuel. I poured off the old fuel and discarded (burned) it. I let the tank dry. It had a small amount of solid black debris (maybe a gram or two) which the gas station attendant blew out the best he could with compressed air. Three gallons of fresh, ethanol-free gas added and then I fined the new fuel with a pump and a new in line filter to remove any of that solid material that may have remained.
There is no doubt that the fuel pump was shot and had to be replaced - see that photo I previously posted. Rust inside and oozing from the pump cover! Replacing it was the easiest thing in the world - once the cowling was off, a few hoses and two bolts.
Sadly, the Suzuki cable is not an option for me as I only own Mac computers! I figured that that fuel pump was a sure thing and easy to do, so why not. The motor went to the shop where they can run the diagnostic cable. There is some thought that there may be rust downstream of the pump. No injector cleaner is going to dissolve ferric oxide, so they will need to clean the injectors as well. There was also an opinion rendered that the fuel problem alone can't explain the flashing red light, so we will see what the computer tells us.
Thanks for contributing!
As boatyard dog says, it is not like the old days when a 2-cycle motor could be completely broken down and rebuilt on the workbench. The innumerable sensors, injectors, and electronics make this a tough game for amateurs.

[purvisgs]

Small particles that made it through the oem fuel filter (unless broken or missing) could also be cleaned out using a DIY injector cleaning approach.


If dedicated enough and it has the right ports, you can easily run windows (dual boot operating systems) on a mac laptop these days

[lestersails]

Hi All
Update from the shop. Per the recommendations of several of you, the pathway was through the computer diagnostics. The error code was the electronic fuel flow sensor* within the throttle body. According to the shop, this sensor cannot itself be replaced and is integral to the throttle body, $460 for the part.
I will update you again after the repair is done to confirm if that leads to a smooth running motor.
Thanks again for all your help!
Les

* I think that is what he said - but am not 100% sure.

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by lestersails

Hi All
Update from the shop. Per the recommendations of several of you, the pathway was through the computer diagnostics. The error code was the electronic fuel flow sensor* within the throttle body. According to the shop, this sensor cannot itself be replaced and is integral to the throttle body, $460 for the part.
I will update you again after the repair is done to confirm if that leads to a smooth running motor.
Thanks again for all your help!
Les

* I think that is what he said - but am not 100% sure.

Flow sensor. Ugh.
https://www.brownspoint.com/store/pc...il.asp?ID=5130

According to this the sensor is not inter grated into the throttle body.
I'm surprised they would replace th TB outright.
Doesn't make sense.
Unless it's a guess.

I'm sure there a test for that sensor.
You could ask.
The sensor is a little over $100
And screws into the top of the sensor.
Do you have a good relationship with this shop?

I know your predicament though.
Boatyarddog

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by Boatyarddog

Flow sensor. Ugh.
https://www.brownspoint.com/store/pc...il.asp?ID=5130

According to this the sensor is not inter grated into the throttle body.
I'm surprised they would replace th TB outright.
Doesn't make sense.
Unless it's a guess.

I'm sure there a test for that sensor.
You could ask.
The sensor is a little over $100
And screws into the top of the sensor.
Do you have a good relationship with this shop?

I know your predicament though.
Boatyarddog

Hi Again BYD!
I think that what you are seeing and quoting is the solenoid, which I think is a solenoid that controls the throttle body main throttle valve or butterfly valve (part number 13420-16HA1). I would guess that the sensor is embedded in that part of the throttle body that protrudes at the front right of the diagram (not the top) that has the two prong electrical connector and the Suzuki blow up does not show that that is detachable.
I got the highest recommendation for this shop from a good friend. But I am a new customer to them.
Les

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by lestersails

Hi Again BYD!
I think that what you are seeing and quoting is the solenoid, which I think is a solenoid that controls the throttle body main throttle valve or butterfly valve (part number 13420-16HA1). I would guess that the sensor is embedded in that part of the throttle body that protrudes at the front right of the diagram (not the top) that has the two prong electrical connector and the Suzuki blow up does not show that that is detachable.
I got the highest recommendation for this shop from a good friend. But I am a new customer to them.
Les

Looking here it's a TPS throttle position sensor. http://www.suzukimarine.com/~/media/...Info-View1.pdf
Incorporated in the TB.
At the bottom of the page you can see the TB, highlighted in blue box.
Position sensors, increase the fuel momentarily depending on load.
A bit like an accelerator pump, for when you crack open the throttle so it doesn't stall out due to a lean condition.

The one on top is an idle solenoid.

TPS tells the computer to rich up the mix, and is a load sensor.

Can be tested for smooth rise in value when slowly opened.
Any glitches in that value signals an issue, as well, no value, or shorted.

Guess they know what's up?
They should test before condemning that part.
The problem signals a lean condition on acceleration.
It fits the part.

Proof testing, keeps mechanics honest or teaches them to check carefully before condemning an expensive part, and causing the customer money.
Boatyarddog

[BBill]

Sheesh that's crazy money to fix a 9.9 TB issue. I think for $450 I'd call the new USA Suzuki outboard headquarters in Florida and try to get some customer relief. I hear they are customer friendly and it won't hurt anything to call. That motor may have had the 6 yr warranty.

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by BBill

Sheesh that's crazy money to fix a 9.9 TB issue. I think for $450 I'd call the new USA Suzuki outboard headquarters in Florida and try to get some customer relief. I hear they are customer friendly and it won't hurt anything to call. That motor may have had the 6 yr warranty.

Agreed,.... 6 years could have been hard ones though.

I'd bet they've seen this before and would not sell this part without testing it for failures, or have had problems with it.
There's a possibility it's got a campaign or recall on that part.
I think if that was true it would be told to the customer.

But, I've seen some shady **** though.
I'm hoping for the best.
Boatyarddog