Synthetic oil for diesel/transmissions

[vonotto]

Ok here I come with one of my stupid questions.......when I was small 30++ years ago, we went camping all the time and we pulled a huge 5th wheel trailer behind our truck. My dad had installed a transmition cooler on it cause in washington state going over all the mountain passes made the truck overheat. Here is the question....could you put something like that on the boat???

Now before you all bash me remember I have never had a boat with a diesel or inboard engine...yet.

[never monday]

Originally Posted by vonotto

Ok here I come with one of my stupid questions.......when I was small 30++ years ago, we went camping all the time and we pulled a huge 5th wheel trailer behind our truck. My dad had installed a transmition cooler on it cause in washington state going over all the mountain passes made the truck overheat. Here is the question....could you put something like that on the boat???

Now before you all bash me remember I have never had a boat with a diesel or inboard engine...yet.

Yes, but. That was an air to oil cooler. On a boat it wouldn't be very efficient and would create unnecessary heat. A seawater to oil cooler would be preferred. Doing an external cooler would be easy. A few fittings, a good pump and a cooler. Put the cooler in the intake stream and pump the oil thru it.

[jdoe71]

I just learned that Foley Industries makes a cooler that bolts onto the side of the smaller HBW Hurth trans if the case has 4 pre-drilled holes in it, raw water circulates through this unit and it cools the trans. Not sure if mine has these holes but I'll be looking this weekend. Foley also says RedLine synthetic is OK for HBW series gears as they are mechanical, they also market their own synthetic fluid called Hytork. That's the best I've been able to find so far on this topic.

[Alan Wheeler]

For every 1degC you can keep the oil in the tranny, you gain about 1000Kms of extra milage from it. Yes synthetic oils can help reduce tranny heat. DO NOT use additives. Use a specific desinged for the job Synthetic oil. Synthetic tranny oils are not necessarily any more slippery that Dino oils. They are certainly more stable and one of the real big advantages is the ability to reduce foaming, foaming oil has poor heat conduction. Plus the ability to want to "stick" to moving parts, which mean the cooling oil is flowing over parts removing that heat more efficiently.
Once again, DO NOT use additives. Most additives out there are nothing more than friction reducers and these can be harmful as Pat has concerns with. A good reputable Synthetic oil is about stability, heat reduction and anti-foaming. This aids in wear reduction. It is NOT about being more slipery. If it was just about that, then we would have more anti-wear additives packs put into all lubricants on the market by the major industry names.
The other mainadvantage, and I see this as major advantage for boats that don't run the engine for winter periods, is the ability of the synoils to remain coated over parts to reduce corrosion.

[S/V Antares]

Yes Jdope71, Foley sells the unit I mentioned. You run the seawater intake to it then to the water pump">raw water pump. Not real efficient but still better than nothing. They fit the HBW 50 /100 and ZF 10, 125. I am trying to put together something that will increase the temp Delta a bit more. If you are not sure how hot your trans gets you can use Temp Dots that stick on the gearbox and turn black at fixed temps . Cheaper than a IR gun. www.omega.com/Temperature/pdf/TL-T_LABELS.pdf

I am please to hear Foley sez it is OK for certain synthitics. He is a good source.

Will Heyer

[Alan Wheeler]

Here is some interesting info. I have no affiliation with Amsoil. I just happily use the product. AMSOIL - Synthetic Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid
AMSOIL - Torque-Drive™ Synthetic Transmission Fluid
AMSOIL Products For Transmissions

Here is Something I have not seen before. I know nothing about it.
AMSOIL - AMSOIL Marine Dual Remote Filtration System (BMK-18)

Here are some answers to some common misconceptions.
AMSOIL - Converting From Petroleum Motor Oil to Synthetic Motor Oil
AMSOIL - Converting From Petroleum Motor Oil To Synthetic Motor Oil
AMSOIL - AMSOIL and Break In on New and Rebuilt Engines

[hellosailor]

Pat, I would agree with you that using a tranny fluid with 'less' friction could be a bad thing--but a correctly spec'd synthetic will have the correct friction for the purpose of intended use. So that's a non-issue IF the correct spec is followed, synthetic or otherwise.

I would suggest to Jdope that he use the toll-free phone number or web site to contact any of the major suppliers (Shell, Mobil, etc. and ignore the racing specialists and the Amsoil "gang" distributorships) to ask for a suitable product, including any questions about break-in.

Most of them will stand behind their warranty and repair any engine damage--including a complete rebuild--if there is any problem from a lube failure when you are using their products according to their instructions. And they do offer warranties.

Diesel of course is different from a spark engine--there's so much carbon soot contaminating the oil that it turns black almost immediately. So, keeping a synoil in the engine for long periods will also mean too much soot being kept in it. But if you follow the right change schedules--you still get the advantage of all the other additives in the synoils. Whether that's a waste of money is something else again, some of us value our time more than the extra cost of the oil.

On not using Moly lubes: LOOK OUT! A lot of the synthetics, including the Mobil1 full synthetic oils, DO USE MOLY AND IT IS NOT ON THE LABEL. I only found out because my oil analysis came back showing it, and there was only one place it could have come from. Well, only one place unless burglars snuck in an added it in the dead of night.<G>

[Latitude9.5]

As far as using syn in a new engine... all the hypo autos come from the factory with syn. The vettes were mobile one i know ferrari uses syn right off the assembly line as well. I've never bought the "break in" crap and always went strait to syn on my first oil change.

Also I don't know that i've seen it mentioned, but the properties of syn oil and dyno oil when mixed with water is a night and day difference, something to consider in a boat that might be a nice feature in case you do get a couple drops in there somewhere.

[jdoe71]

Hellosailor, thanks for the input, I'm definitely not going to extend oil changes beyond the 100 hours/once a season the manufacturer recommends. The Moly warning was for the trans not the engine. I will be asking that question when I contact the oil companies as you suggest to make sure there is no moly in their synthetic ATF.

One thing I'm surprised at, Foley's website talks about mixing regular oil with synthetic "We gained the advantages of synthetics without the rapid drain-off from engine castings (leading to dry starts)." I thought synthetics provided better coating of parts than regular oil.

[never monday]

Originally Posted by Latitude9.5

As far as using syn in a new engine... all the hypo autos come from the factory with syn. The vettes were mobile one i know ferrari uses syn right off the assembly line as well.

This is true and includes Porsche. They've been delivering cars with it since it came out. but these engine are dyno'd to break them in to what the manufacturer believes to be an acceptable output. Our marine engines are also dyno'd, but just to confirm they run and meet emissions.

Originally Posted by Latitude9.5

I've never bought the "break in" crap and always went strait to syn on my first oil change.

I have personal experience with "break in" oil and new rings. Synthetic doesn't allow enough wear to get the rings to seat to the cylinder walls

[hellosailor]

Jdope-
"I thought synthetics provided better coating of parts than regular oil."
Oil isn't all the same. In theory the synoils are made so that they will leave a THINNER coating, which will stay in place LONGER. And, they have been built for better thin-film lubrication, meaning a thin film of syn oil protects--when dyno-oil does not protect in the same THIN FILM application.

Mxing the two is just a DIY way of getting the "synthetic blend" type that is sold now. Of course if you DIY, there's no telling how much of what additive you've just diluted, or whether it is still effective in that dilution. It might be just as good, it might be better. Or worse.<G>

Like the man at the horse track says,
"You pays your money, you takes your choices."

[jdoe71]

I gotta agree on not using synthetic during the break-in, our early race engines were broken in with synthetic and "baby the engine" easy use and we had problems with rings not seating. There was so much blow-by with the turbo we were pressurizing the crankcase and blowing oil out the breather. We switched engine builders, used the same rings but the new guy had a different approach to break-in as I described before and we had no problems after that. This isn't a new engine I'm dealing with though, it is well broken in on dino.

I like synthetics, no question about it, have also used blended synthetics with good results as well but I wouldn't mix the two myself when they're available on the shelf. I also know synthetics are not always the right thing in every case. Just have to decide if this is the right case or not. I'm strongly leaning towards using synthetics in the trans, jury is still out on the engine though.

[S/V Antares]

Great thread all, however with regard to gears and little mechanical ones in particular, there are no rings. Just ball bearings under brutal loads as these gears are subject to overheating because the engine mfg's put on the smallest ones they can get away with.
The "Clutch plates" are really syncos that slow/stop the rotation as the""dog ears" engauge. The failure mode on a mechanical HBW/ZFxx is not generally slippage. It is usually CF (catastrophic failure.. not "cluster F___) First it makes noise to wake the dead then it goes BANG.
Continious duty is something they DO NOT want to talk about.

It is heat that kills. Syn's generally handle heat better. I recall that Early on HBW50 manual said 30wt engine oil then changed to Dextron trans fluid as it had a higher heat rating . I had the same issue with diffs in BMW race cars. the rules said no cooler so we made really big 1/4 inch aluminum gaskets to disapate the heat.

Geez sometimes I wish i had aN OLD "make Break" engine with no reverse gear. Just reverse the rotation if you want reverse. Not easy but it does not break.

Will Heyer

[Microship]

Excellent info for this marine diesel newbie; thanks. I'm getting a pretty positive overall vibe about synthetics from this thread and others.

My new boat has a Yanmar 4JH-DTE (77 hp turbo) with about 2900 hours. Oil analysis not back yet (but I said yes anyway), and history is good. Surveyor give it high marks. It has a nifty oil manifold system (shared with the adjacent Yanmar 7.5kw genset) that allows clean-hands oil changes, with used oil accumulating in a tank.

With the turbo, is this engine a good candidate for synthetics?

Thanks,
Steve

[Alan Wheeler]

With the turbo, is this engine a good candidate for synthetics?

Absolutley. Synthetics really shine in hard working engines. Turbo's make the engine work very hard indeed.