Trouble removing fuel injection pump from Universal 5411

[sloopwjb]

I am trying to get the fuel injection pump out of my Universal 5411. I've gotten all four bolts off the top and it is now loose. I can pull it out a little but I can't get it completely out. There is nothing in the way from the top, it feels like it is catching on something underneath that won't let it come up. I've checked the service manual and parts list but nothing seems to show what it might be caught on. Does anyone have any ideas? Any help would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.

[Lepke]

I don't know your engine, but turning the motor slightly might help. I wouldn't take the pump apart unless you have experience. Injector pumps have very tight clearances and can rust when exposed to air (or water in the fuel). You might talk to an injector rebuild company. If they do your pump, most have an instruction sheet for remove and install so it stays in time.

[sloopwjb]

Thank you. Yes, I get it about taking the pump apart. However, I need to get it out of the engine to take it somewhere and that's what I can seem to do.

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by sloopwjb

Thank you. Yes, I get it about taking the pump apart. However, I need to get it out of the engine to take it somewhere and that's what I can seem to do.

Try using the stop control lever to centre the fuel rack. The rack rod is a close fit lengthwise in the hole that the pump sits in. Once released , the pump will lift up high enough to disengage the link to the governor. If the pump is being removed because the rack has seized, this operation becomes quite a challenge and may include partial dismantling of the pump in situ to release the seized rack rod. It's also important to keep all the shims that exist between the pump housing and the engine block, they are there to adjust the injection timing.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Sloopwjb.

UNIVERSAL DIESEL MODEL 15 & 25 (EARLY MODELS 5411 & 5421) SERVICE MANUAL
➥ https://www.westerbeke.com/technical...hnical_man.pdf

[sloopwjb]

Thank you, all! I'm sure glad I found this forum. It's been a nerve wracking experience. I'm posting my solution and a final question below.



The rack was stuck in WOT or thereabouts and skipperpete was right, the clearance just isn't there to get it out with it extended. I couldn't see that yesterday because it was hung up on the aft starboard stud and between poor lighting, oil black on everything and angles, the rack wasn't visible. I took the stud out which allowed me to tilt it forward. I had a 300 lumen headlamp and could just see the rack sticking through the fork control opening. I couldn't move it but using a socket wrench extension and gently tapping it, it moved and appears to be now unstuck as well. It moves _very_ freely now so I'm hoping it's not because it's damaged. Is there any way to check without putting it in the engine and trying to start it?

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by sloopwjb

Thank you, all! I'm sure glad I found this forum. It's been a nerve wracking experience. I'm posting my solution and a final question below.



The rack was stuck in WOT or thereabouts and skipperpete was right, the clearance just isn't there to get it out with it extended. I couldn't see that yesterday because it was hung up on the aft starboard stud and between poor lighting, oil black on everything and angles, the rack wasn't visible. I took the stud out which allowed me to tilt it forward. I had a 300 lumen headlamp and could just see the rack sticking through the fork control opening. I couldn't move it but using a socket wrench extension and gently tapping it, it moved and appears to be now unstuck as well. It moves _very_ freely now so I'm hoping it's not because it's damaged. Is there any way to check without putting it in the engine and trying to start it?

Have you removed the plate on the side of the block? This should give you access to make sure everything is lined up when you reassemble it.

The rack on the pump should move very freely indeed. The shutdown and throttle levers should also move freely, but with a little more force required, one is probably spring loaded and the other is probably a direct link to the actuating forks, but I can't remember which is which.

Have you removed the pump because it was stuck in one position, or were there other problems?

[sloopwjb]

Yes, I removed the plate on the side. I can see whether the pin will be in the groove of the fork so hopefully that part of the reassembly will be straightforward. If anyone has any advice, though, on how to reach the port aft bolt of the fuel injection pump to tighten it down without having to remove the inlet port, I'd appreciate it. Had a socket angled a little trying to get it off and was really afraid I'd round the bolt head.


Thank you for easing my mind a bit about how free the rack is. There are two forks and two springs. One goes from the throttle lever to a fork I can't see through the side plate. The other appears to go from the forward side of the speed control opening to the fork that controls the rack. There is only one speed control lever and it needs to be pushed completely aft to shut down the engine. These details are clearer in the 5411 "Parts Manual."



I removed the pump because the engine was running away and the throttle didn't work. Further testing indicated that the pump was stuck in one position and that was "run away."

[Reefmagnet]

I had exactly the same issue recently on virtually an identical pump and I figured since I had the pump out anyway (and the rack free'd itself after a couple of decent hammer taps) I took it to a pro and had it rebuilt. Cost a couple of hundred bucks but the peace of mind is worth it, imho. I also took the opportunity to clean the governor up while everything was apart as well.



In regards to that hard to reach bolt, try either a smaller 1/4" drive socket or ratchet spanner. May not work in your case, but worth a try.

[sloopwjb]

Did you take the governor apart? I had to remove the spring between "somewhere" and the governor fork and nearly lost it into the case. Anyway, I didn't really see what it was connected to on the front. Did you get any pictures while you had it apart? Where did you get the pump serviced? Was it a place that specialized in Universals or just a place that does fuel injection pumps?

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by sloopwjb

Did you take the governor apart? I had to remove the spring between "somewhere" and the governor fork and nearly lost it into the case. Anyway, I didn't really see what it was connected to on the front. Did you get any pictures while you had it apart? Where did you get the pump serviced? Was it a place that specialized in Universals or just a place that does fuel injection pumps?

My engine is a Mitsubishi S3L2 which has a removable governor assembly which may not apply to your engine but I didn't disassemble its inner workings at all. I just flushed it and cleaned it (with an old tooth brush) and lubed it up prior to reassembly. There was a bit of gunk in it and the springs had some corrosion present.


I took the pump to a general injector pump specialist that normally works with road vehicles based on recommendations after making a couple of phone calls (not a lot of choice where I am). Wasn't in their usual line up of work but they had the gear and skill to rebuild and test it. Came back looking like new after a couple of days if appearance means anything. Certainly worked a lot better after re-installation!

[sloopwjb]

Thanks. Sorry, I thought you had the same engine. I don't think the 5411 governor is really serviceable since you need to remove the whole front to get at it. However, if anyone has any info on where that governor spring connects to at the front, I'd really appreciate it.


I really appreciate everyone's help. Here's hoping I can get everything back together tomorrow, didn't mess up the pump or injector and have an engine that doesn't go insane when given a little bit of fuel.

[skipperpete]

Happy to hear that you succeeded with the pump. Be careful with simply refitting the pump and hoping for the best , the reason is that the fuel rack was being held in full fuel because one of the pump elements/ plungers seized in mid or top of stroke due to corrosion or other damage and the rack is now free at the bottom of the stroke.... but may seize or stick again when the cam pushes the plunger back up to top. If you refit the pump for a trial run, be totally ready to close off the intake air or have a wrench on each of the injector pipes to shut er down in case of another run away.

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

Happy to hear that you succeeded with the pump. Be careful with simply refitting the pump and hoping for the best , the reason is that the fuel rack was being held in full fuel because one of the pump elements/ plungers seized in mid or top of stroke due to corrosion or other damage and the rack is now free at the bottom of the stroke.... but may seize or stick again when the cam pushes the plunger back up to top. If you refit the pump for a trial run, be totally ready to close off the intake air or have a wrench on each of the injector pipes to shut er down in case of another run away.

Not always. The rack can corrode in engine off position which is actually fast idle (wide open) due to the way the speed regulation system works which freezes it in position. This is what happened to mine, and for a while the stop solenoid would jar it loose so it was like.. start -> rev flat out -> stop -> restart -> all good .. until the day came that the stop solenoid couldn't break the rack loose. Then the panic started.


I'd definitely agree with a service though, because the corrosion might also be out of site.

[sloopwjb]

skipperpete, the boat's been on the hard for six years due to lack of time or money. The fuel in the tank is likely bad so to be able to test right away, I set up a test fuel system of a gas can, fuel filter, and fuel line. When I bled it the engine started and ran away for what seemed like hours, probably due to panic Regardless, regaining my wits and overcoming the reluctance to have to bleed the line again, I pulled the hose out of the gas can and the engine stopped. That prompted the decision to put a valve as a fuel shutoff right before the fuel pump. I can actually run the engine with that valve open a tiny bit but it's very rough. Having that valve allowed me to run the engine and verify that the throttle wasn't working and precipitated this whole process.


Hopefully there's no down side to the valve because I can't see why anyone wouldn't want one on a diesel as just this kind of last resort option.