Yanmar 4jh4-TE 75hp vs Volvo Penta D2-75 (or D2-60)

[a64pilot]

Why would it require a technician? Does the ECU have to be programmed or something?
I’d suspect that as with many things when you ask a dealer, you’ll get the answer of no, we have to do that. That protects their profit, and it may in fact be required for warranty. I’m not up enough on the Magnussen Moss Warranty act to make that statement.
But I have heard forever that you have to have a dealer service x or it’s warranty is invalid, which is untrue. You have to prove that it was serviced correctly though.

[a64pilot]

OK looked it up, replacing an injector requires the ECU to be programmed with the new injector data, or warranty is invalidated, and replacing an ECU will require fuel injector data to be migrated over to the new ECU, or warranty is invalidated. I suspect it’s due to emissions, as other common rail motors don’t require this, but I bet to pass emission may require the injector poise width to be trimmed for each individual injector so that the injected amount is precise.

Emissions is getting tougher and tougher to pass, I asked the Nexgen generator manufacturer how he passes emissions and was told that they don’t have to, apparently they fall below the requirement,maybe there is an engine size or use that requires emissions to pass?

So your going to need to think of that laptop as another tool. Will require software and likely some cabling too.

I can’t imagine Beta can pass, I’d assume that for some reason they don’t have to, but to pass modern emissions without common rail is nearly impossible and OTR vehicles require the use of urea and all sorts of devices to pass. Modern road Diesels are very complex now.

[a64pilot]

It seems it’s fixing to get tough for ships too?
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/01/bigg...se-prices.html

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

OK looked it up, replacing an injector requires the ECU to be programmed with the new injector data, or warranty is invalidated, and replacing an ECU will require fuel injector data to be migrated over to the new ECU, or warranty is invalidated. I suspect it’s due to emissions, as other common rail motors don’t require this, but I bet to pass emission may require the injector poise width to be trimmed for each individual injector so that the injected amount is precise.

Emissions is getting tougher and tougher to pass, I asked the Nexgen generator manufacturer how he passes emissions and was told that they don’t have to, apparently they fall below the requirement,maybe there is an engine size or use that requires emissions to pass?

So your going to need to think of that laptop as another tool. Will require software and likely some cabling too.

I can’t imagine Beta can pass, I’d assume that for some reason they don’t have to, but to pass modern emissions without common rail is nearly impossible and OTR vehicles require the use of urea and all sorts of devices to pass. Modern road Diesels are very complex now.

What I have heard is owners have asked Yanmar to buy spare ECU or injectors, and were told no go. Same for the software to service the engine.

Apparently Beta manages through IDI technology to stay tier 3. Yes seems mechanical diesel may be a dying breed. And I was glad to get one while I could

[yachtodyssey]

Originally Posted by Zzmeyer

I've had Yanmar for 30 years and have yet to buy a part (other than normal maintenance) so I can't help you there. Tells you what I think of Yanmar. The Volvo, I believe is really a rebranded Perkins, has had ongoing problems with their electronic controller (MDI), but I'm getting a pair of 60's in my catamaran as they wanted too much more for the Yanmar. And those who have suggested Beta seem to love them. Probably can't go wrong with any of those. I guess you should prepare for an engine failure so I would be inclined to go with what is more popular in your area (the cost of repair, unless you do itself,is primarily labor so having lots of people who know your engine should help with the cost)

Thank you!

[a64pilot]

It depends on how proprietary a company wants to be with their code and how much market there is to break it. GM for instance was not proprietary and let that info out, so pretty quickly there were programs to write code for GM ECU’s.
Now understand I’m a BEM when it comes to computers (bugger eating moron) so I may be mis using words.
The one I used and became enamored with was LS1 edit.
http://carputing.tripod.com/LS1main.htm
It enabled me to do things like spark advance curve, knock retard, set auto transmission shift points and pressures, and allowed me to tailor the fuel air mix ratio per throttle position and RPM based on O2 readings.
Pretty much everything that used to take you to put a distributor on a bench to and re-jet carbs, no parts required, no plug chops etc.
Made it so you could actually edit tuning on a dynamometer and actually honest to God tune you engine for max performance, max economy, max torque for towing, whatever you wanted by merely pressing keys and not changing parts.

Now that was decades ago, pretty sure things evolve, Yanmar’s little monopoly will be broken soon, I bet it already has as I bet they bought someone else’s.
But I do not know, perhaps the market is too small. But to require a piece of equipment that they will not sell to you, is a I think a quick way to become irrelevant to cruisers.

[yachtodyssey]

Dear all ! I apologize if I forgot to thank someone personally. Your opinions helped to make a decision and added Important points for finding additional information. Have a lovely weekend for all, and safe journey for those who are at sea!

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by malbert73

What I have heard is owners have asked Yanmar to buy spare ECU or injectors, and were told no go. Same for the software to service the engine.

Apparently Beta manages through IDI technology to stay tier 3. Yes seems mechanical diesel may be a dying breed. And I was glad to get one while I could

This is a disaster in the making for anyone cruising the world. Third world mechanics are among the best in the world because they have to fix things rather than just buy a new part. But if parts are unobtanium and not installable except for "Factory Certified" mechanics you will see boats stranded in remote parts of the world with unrepairable engines because the local mechanic, no mater how good cannot service them.

[DougR]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Yanmar have a factory second alternator option, and there are aftermarket solutions.

Yanmar engines have a much better reputation although the sail drives are poor, so this only applies to shaft drive installations. The move to common rail by Yanmar and Volvo is a concern. There have been some teething problems, especially with Volvo engines, and the long term reliability on a sailboat is unclear.

This makes some of the alternatives such as Beta worthy of consideration until the dust settles on the new injection systems.

Certainly Volvo Penta has had problems with their MDI (Black Box) system, but it's not because it uses a common rail fuel system. The D1 and D2 series sailboat engines are straight forward mechanical diesels. Anyone with a screwdriver can jump the starter motor if necessary and operate the engine with the standard throttle and shift cables.
The MDI system stands for "Mechanical Diesel Interface" which is a conversion system which takes mechanical engine sender information and converts it into a Can Bus protocol which communicates with CanBus instruments, chart plotters, etc. Behind the scenes, however, is a normal mechanical diesel engine.

DougR

[malbert73]

I also think there have been some documented issues with new yanmars and faulty sensors shutting the engine down for faults that were not actually occurring. Again, if an onboard user could have a diagnostic laptop I think troubleshooting these new engines could probably be even easier than a mechanical one. But the thought of my engine shutting down on me suddenly in a pass for something other than lack of fuel is pretty scary.
I also heard delivery skippers of new cats said it’s rare for them to get across the Atlantic with both engines still functional. Hopefully these early bugs have all been worked out.

I chartered a boat with a CR yanmar last year and honestly it was only quieter and smoother at idle than my Beta. At cruising speed don’t think I could tell difference

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by DougR

Certainly Volvo Penta has had problems with their MDI (Black Box) system, but it's not because it uses a common rail fuel system. The D1 and D2 series sailboat engines are straight forward mechanical diesels.

Thanks Doug. I presumed incorrectly with all the electronic controls the Volvo engines were common rail.

The electronic controls do not worry me as much as the adoption of common rail although the teething problems with the first generation models are not surprising.

Boats have far more issues with dirty fuel and diesel bug than cars and trucks and I think this only going get worse with more widespread use of bio fuels.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

You will need to consider whether your existing electrical system is "insulated earth/ above ground". If you buy a Yanmar it costs about $1,000 to convert to insulated earth. I don't know whether the new Volvo engines have the option available as in the past but it's definitely an issue for alloy boat repowers.

Can you provide more detail? My Yanmar (to the best of my knowledge) is not "insulated earth" but is grounded just like any other engine. No electrical system conversion was required to install it.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by pcmm

Can you provide more detail? My Yanmar (to the best of my knowledge) is not "insulated earth" but is grounded just like any other engine. No electrical system conversion was required to install it.

Pretty sure only matters for metal boats

[Chalifour]

We have Jeanneau DS43 (13m and 14t) with a 75 hp Yanmar engine combined to a Max Prop! Simply Perfect. Powerful and also accurate when backing up. Little over 3000 hrs with regular tune-ups and literally no problem!

[DeValency]

I think the two models the OP listed are more or less similar in reliability and cost of parts. At any case, if you buy a new engine and serve it properly you wouldn’t need too many parts for many years. Over the years I had both Yanmar and Volvo and somehow liked the Yanmar a little more for no specific reason.
As for the size, I think 75HP is appropriate but you could go to 60HP and be fine with that. I was making some studies recently as my original, factory installed is a 100HP Volvo TMD-31 beast - on a Contest 43, 14 tons) and although model 1992, runs perfectly. I never needed to get over 2600 RPM to reach maximum hull speed at any sea conditions... so naturally not using more than 70% of the engine potential output. And indeed, my boat’s builder (Contest NL) and the almost identical boat from Hallberg-Rassy are now installing a 75HP engine, both Volvo and Yanmar by client’s preference.

Well - in the meantime decided to hold the downgrade for some time as I’m liking closely at electric propulsion.... but that’s for another discussion