YSE8 shattered valve spring! Help?

[a64pilot]

Often times valves just stick from disuse and possibly water in the exhaust causing rust.
It was probably a major factor in the price of the boat, and a complete overhaul while always being the most conservative may not be warrantied here.
It's not like he is going on a Circumnavigation, more likely weekend sailing?

On the hull, best to start another thread on it, often composite guys may not read an engine thread but they will on one about hulls.

[SailingFan]

OK, found the valve springs at normal cost (about $4.50 US apiece), and the shipping, unlike from the local Yanmar Marine dealer network was negligible. I will also have them faster because this guy had something like 20 in stock! For those looking for springs for the SB8, the link is: http://www.hoyetractor.com/BASK.htm

This facility is a tractor parts location, and they are located in Texas, USA. They are very happy to assist but you do need to tell them the part number or they don't have a way to pull the thing up in their catalog (they are tractor part suppliers).

It took less than 30 seconds for the man to tell me he had it in stock, and how many, from the time I told him what I wanted. The part number originally was 104211-11120 from Yanmar, but the modern number for the same part from this dealer is VS-4211 and like I said, he has them in stock. You may also see these as HVS-4211 elsewhere. I bought a pair and should have them later this week in hand.

He had no problem selling them to me, so I guess Yanmar's issue is that they force the marine dealers to comply with territories, but not so the tractor sales locations. I have a sneaky feeling the valves may be available there too, but have to hunt the numbers for those down. I may be able to get them in on the same package. The ones in the head look ok, but I have not yet pulled them out of the head (which is sitting on my shop bench) and cleaned them up, so I don't know if the insidious rust around the stem at the base of the valve body is there. Wish me luck!

The pushrods seem to be solid steel, no hole for oil flow, and they do not seem bent (they roll evenly). There was oil on top of the head around the springs, so it is getting pumped/sloshed up there somehow!

The piston was fine, the sleeve was fine, and amazingly, there was a minor dent in the tarlike residue on the piston head, but it did not extend to the metal itself. There is a carbon and tarry residue everywhere on the piston head, it looks like I am not the only one who tried to start this engine with a broken valve spring (therefore no compression) and that residue likely combined with whatever else people put in there to attempt to start her up.

Does anyone know how to get those boots that hold the retaining wedges in place to come loose without bending the valve on the workbench? Do I have to use a spring compressor, or can I use something else? On the broken one, there is no tension on the valve, but I still cannot get the boot to move and allow the wedges to come free.

Also, the caps that go over the wedges are there, but do not seem to mount tightly, they just lift off the ends of the valve stems. Is that normal?

I do know the PO said the PO before him replaced the exhaust elbow, but what I see is a piece of galvanized pipe with a 45 galvanized pipe elbow threaded to it, then another galvanized pipe threaded at both ends, then a rubber hose double clamped to it.

The second threaded end (the one not in the elbow itself) is simply enclosed within this second rubber hose. Of interest is that there is also a smaller galvanized pipe welded into the final one at an angle, and routes to an orange hose that also connects to the engine, and the weld joining this smallish pipe (about 3/4") to the larger main exhaust pipe (about 1 1/2"?) is rather crappy and corroded. What seems to have been replaced is just the galvanized 45 degree elbow itself.

I think that perhaps the guy just went to Home Depot, bought some galvanized pipe material in two sizes and an elbow, took his Harbor Freight buzz box and welded up an exhaust combining unit (vent?).

The last hose is also made of rubber, and runs into a large grey cylinder at the aftmost end of the engine bay, and it looks like someone epoxied a crack shut all around the end of that plastic cylinder near where the exhaust hose enters it. I am assuming it is a muffler of some sort? Baffle?

This large rubber hose has a split within the inner liner of the hose, and I am thinking I need to replace it or risk venting exhaust into the engine bay if it completely perforates.

This entire assembly connects to the aft side of the head itself. Is it correct that I can use automotive radiator hose or some sort of heat handling hose to replace the split one that connects to the grey cylinder that seems to go into the transom itself?

[a64pilot]

OK, the caps are rotator cups and yes they just sit there, and they must be present.
You can remove valve keepers by putting a socket over the spring and smacking it, the keepers will fall to the sides and the retainer will come free, but you have to have a spring compressor to install. I bet you can rent one at the local auto parts store for next to nothing.
Now if it weren't a Diesel head I'd say have fun, do her yourself and learn something, but it is a Diesel head and valve leakage that is fine on a gas motor isn't on a Diesel. So take it to a shop for them to grind the valves, check for valve guide wear and replace the valve oil seals.
A good Diesel valve job you can fill the port behind the valve with alcohol and it won't leak, a little wetness in a couple of minutes is OK, but no leak

check the push rods by rolling them on something dead flat, window glass is good

On edit , I'm saying take the rotator cups off and save them, then take the head to a shop and pick it up later. It should be very little money they will do it right and you will be ahead if you don't try this yourself.

[a64pilot]

OK, that epoxied can looking thing is the muffler, use only marine exhaust hose, anything else will eventually cause you grief, darn stiff isn't cheap, not is it nice and flexible, but we all deal with it.

[Cheechako]

Have the valves ground and let the shop deal with installing the spring, valves guides etc. It cant be much and you'll know hat you have, Well worth it. Who know, the engine may go a log time with all that buttoned up.

[SailingFan]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

OK, that epoxied can looking thing is the muffler, use only marine exhaust hose, anything else will eventually cause you grief, darn stiff isn't cheap, not is it nice and flexible, but we all deal with it.

Any idea what that exhaust hose may cost?

How do the caps stay in place? They don't seem to have any sort of method of attachment, so is the valve cover what holds them on?

[Compass790]

Good news your piston is ok :-)If you are talking about the valve spring caps it's the spring pressure & the collets that hold them in place. Your workshop manual should answer a lot of stuff. Yes the pushrods are solid the oil flow is thru rocker arms. I ground the valves myself successfully but have done a few v/v grinds before. I found it pretty easy to just push the v/v caps down on the springs with a hammer handle the head sitting on a bench & a washer under the v/v & fed the collets in by hand. The springs aren't that tough. There is no oil seals on a YSB8 head. Thanks for the spring info from the tractor dealer. I'd be interested to know what he thinks is a crossover tractor engine if you talk to him again.
Yes sounds like a home fabricated exhaust elbow but if you price the Yanmar ones you will see why. Yanmar design is crappy, I suggest if you can weld make up your own out of 316 s.s. as the cast iron Yanmar ones virtually guarantee salt water will sit on top of the exhaust v/v at some stage. You should put the water injection point on the downhill side of the elbow not on the exhaust side. You can wrap the exhaust in ceramic tape or kaowool up to the water injection point. They sell custom cast s.s. exhaust elbows on ebay if you cant make your own.
As for the exhaust hose I used steam condensate line hose in last 2 installs, lasts for many years. No idea what it costs but usually about 1/4 the price of something called "marine"

[SailingFan]

Well, I don't have a workshop manual for this engine but one for the E and one for the M! I never could locate a manual (that I could download at no cost) for the SB8 (I am assuming the SB8 on the engine plate and the YSB8 in conversation refer to the same engine). If you know of a site with a free version of the B manual, I am all ears (eyes, actually).

The caps I am referring to are these tiny steel caps, about the size of a hearing aid battery, with very thick walls on them, which set on top of the valve stems themselves after the collets are in place.

In theory I could see how (if they stayed put) they could keep the collets from falling out, but these caps just sit there until you touch them. They then spin, and if you grab them between thumb and forefinger, either one will lift free instantly, there is no friction in the fit whatsoever. The walls are so thick, it would seem there should be some manner of locking them in place, but such is not apparent in the design or under the valve cover by way of loose parts.

The fact both caps are identical makes me think that they are this way by design, so maybe something is missing that I am unaware of. I will check the other manuals to see if they have a similar mounting scheme for these, but I cannot see how they don't fly off with valve movement, and fall down into the block to hatefully do whatever tiny thick steel caps can do to a camshaft and crankshaft...

Oh, and what holds the tappets in place? Are they residing in some sort of collar or something similar? (just an "interested" question, I don't want to pull the engine just to "see" how the internals work if the thing functions fine because from what I have seen so far, parts like gaskets are going to be a made at home affair). Speaking of which, I have to drop the pan to get any sludge or shavings out of it that may be there, as well as retrieve that dropped pushrod (and who knows, I may even locate a few well lubricated and straight spare rods at the same time). I may use a mirror and take a peek from below to see internals once the pan is pulled away, actually...

How do I seal the pan (is it a gasket or just black RTV, or both, neither)? I will be reinstalling the pushrods BEFORE putting the pan back on, I can assure you...

As for exhaust elbow issues...

I am considering if it were possible to use the PO's cast elbow, then a short piece of steel pipe, an angled tee, and another short piece of steel. Put the injection hose on the tee, getting it downstream from the engine. Then I could put the larger hose on the main pipe as the PO did, with two stainless (I would use new stainless, not his questionable content) hose clamps. This is not my live-on boat, but a trainer for me, and I am in no hurry to get anyplace fast (not that an 8 hp is likely to be faster than sails on a nice breezy day, if my calculations are correct!). I am thinking I would not be using the engine all the time, and I have the outboard with me still in any case. It gets as deep as the inboard prop, though the outboard has a smaller prop (barely) and cavitates some in rough water. My primary goal is to use the sails any time I am not attempting to maneuver in tight spaces, such as docking and the like.

[cal40john]

How are the valves adjusted on your engine? I had a motorcycle that had shim disks that came in different thickness's that sat on the valve stem. There wasn't much of a well for them to sit in and it was the rocker arm over everything holding them in place.

Something like this -
92025-1095 Kawasaki Shim, 2.25T $6.41 - 2WheelPros

Or do you have a screw with a locking nut in the end of the rocker arm? In that case, Never Mind.

[a64pilot]

Nothing holds the caps in place except properly adjusted lash, they are there to allow the valve to rotate which it must to wear evenly.
Usually nothing holds a tappet in place except a properly adjusted system, remove the push rod and one should slide right out



Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[SailingFan]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Nothing holds the caps in place except properly adjusted lash, they are there to allow the valve to rotate which it must to wear evenly.
Usually nothing holds a tappet in place except a properly adjusted system, remove the push rod and one should slide right out

Huh.. ok, so the tappet slides UP through the block then and rides on a cam lobe? Remove the cam and the tappet falls down...? So if the pushrod is able to fall by poor placement in the tappet end, you have to insert it very carefully indeed or you have to keep pulling the oilpan? can the tappet fall if the pushrod is removed? If the pushrod is dropped? is there any side support whatever for the tappet?

We are used to hydraulic lifters, where you can just drop the pushrod in the hole in the head, the lifter travels in a tubular hole of sorts (cannot fall out to my knowledge if the camshaft is intact), and all is brilliant.

I just this moment pulled the head itself apart, valves are straight, minor wear on the stems (just enough to show a slightly different finish from the flawless steel that is not rubbed) but nothing to be frightened about if my experience with cars and trucks is relevant. I was glad to see that the wedge retainers were still in place. I probably should not have, but used the oil cap as the socket to remove the valve retainers, as all my shop tools are in the trailer tethered alongside the boat in the yard. I need more tools, I think. A set for everything on the boat, and a set for other use that I don't have to leave with the boat! I just was unsure of what to bring, so it was simple to load the cabinet and some totes. I will know better next time.

The stems of the valves appear to have no corrosion whatever, but I have them soaking just in case the valve head itself has something underneath. There does not look to be any, but it could be hiding under the tarry soot, I suppose, so they are soaking in solvent to be sure. The valve with the broken spring has clean seating surfaces, but the other one (the smaller valve) has some gunk in there, not sure if it is corrosion or not yet, but it is on the valve, not so much on the seat. I am headed to town (we have to do that here, it is very rural in this area) to get some lapping compound to lap both of them regardless, in a few minutes.

I am looking at this exhaust pipe, it is just galvanized pipe, like what would be found in a steam pipe system, the sort you use a pipe wrench to install, threaded at both ends. It is definitely a home made exhaust system.

I have to hunt down the steam condensate hose you mentioned, and am not sure yet where to get it. I have some options closer in (28 miles away) or I surely can find it in Jacksonville (55 miles away). I am hoping for closer. I surely don't want to leave the old line in there because there is about a 3 inch long split in the internal layer that does not reach the outside (but that surely soon will).

Save

[SailingFan]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Often times valves just stick from disuse and possibly water in the exhaust causing rust.
It was probably a major factor in the price of the boat, and a complete overhaul while always being the most conservative may not be warrantied here.
It's not like he is going on a Circumnavigation, more likely weekend sailing?

On the hull, best to start another thread on it, often composite guys may not read an engine thread but they will on one about hulls.

Thanks for this, I did post the info on the maintenance/refit thread forum, but did not see a dedicated hull forum. Is that what you meant?

Also I am planning on weekend sailing, intermittent short trips up the St John's River, and perhaps minor incursions into true seawater perhaps 20 miles offshore on short runs. The bigger water work I am planning on saving for a larger vessel, at this point, and for a time when I have a great deal more experience with sailboats in general.

I pulled the engine intake through hull strainer to change out the Kingston valve (and a good thing too because though the handle moved, the ball inside is stuck solidly), and it appeared from outside that my hull at that point is over an inch thick, solid hand laid glass. No core. However, that is not accurate everyplace, because there is a glass backing plate inside the hull at the Kingston intake valve, about a quarter inch thick, so the hull is actually about a 7/8 inch thick hull (dashing some of my glee).

I am going to town today for other repair things, and the valve is one of them! I think I will appropriate the handle off this valve though for the other one that closes off the cooling water ejection for the engine, as that one does not have a handle on it presently.

[SailingFan]

Well, got the valve paste, and reseated the valves. Springs should be here later in the week. They supposedly shipped today. I have high hopes.

The old spring broke into 4 pieces, and the old intact one is bent to a decent angle, so I am all too happy I purchased a new pair instead of just one.

The valves cleaned up fine, and are pretty as can be. For used valves, that is. No corrosion, no bends, all fine.

Have to do a polish lap on them I guess, but they are seated to the point that the valve grinding compound will allow. I am going to the finer stuff tonight.

There is no slop whatever in the valves installed and traveling, so the guides seem decent. The rocker arm assembly is also smooth as silk. All looks good.

Forgot to take the exhaust bits with me, so wasted a trip to some extent, but I found that I could MAYBE use automotive heater hose for the water injection, but I don't have a solution in hand yet for the main exhaust hose. That steam plant option seems worthwhile, but I have to track some down. Thank Heaven for the Internet...

[mitiempo]

The exhaust riser should not be galvanized, gives off fumes when hot. It should be black iron or stainless.

For exhaust hose - use the proper exhaust hose, hardwall if the run is not straight.

[Compass790]

You can defihitely use heater hose for the water injection. If you are not in a hurry you can look on Aliexpress.com for diamond lapping paste in the micron rating you want, 2 tubes for $3. Mite take 2 weeks to come from China.
Yes you do have to insert pushrod in carefully to find its home but you will get the knack quickly. No side support for pushrod just held by the cups at each end. Side support would just be a place to wear. From your description your motor sounds very good, I resuscitated ours from far worse condition than that so I think you'll find it will be well worth saving although they are noisy shakey beasts ( Much prefer a twin or 3 cylinder if an option ) You will sail faster than it can push you. Cant help with free YSB8 w/shop manual but surprised you cant find on google