1967 Alberg 30 Bilge Rot / Keel ballast exposed

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by Don C L

So I am curious, for all the Alberg owners out there, is the iron set in the keel and then smothered in resin during construction? That might bode well in terms of worry about the iron rusting and busting the keel apart.

Tell me about the ballast

The ballast is a thirty-three hundred pound hunk of cast iron that is set inside the FRP hull, apparently bedded in vermiculite to eliminate the air gap. I'm told that, on the early boats at least, glass tabbing was installed around the top of the casting to hold it into the hull, and resin was poured on top. In the newer boats, the cabin liner obscures such construction details.

Carl Alberg designed the boat for lead ballast. Presumably Kurt Hansen of Whitby Boat Works changed to iron for cost reasons. Using a less-dense ballast material, of course, raises the center of gravity and may move it fore-and-aft, also. I'm speculating that this change may be the reason the boat tends to squat a bit in the stern. Certainly the boat is a bit more tender due to the iron ballast. The very early boats, prior to hull #27, had underweight ballast that failed to compensate for the change. The Association by-laws allow that "a maximum of 460 pounds inside permanent ballast may be added" to these boats. You'll likely find lead or iron pigs already installed on top the keel ballast of these boats.

One boat, hull #78, Caliban, was made with a cast lead ballast at the request of its buyer, Lew Dohn. In his words, "At the time of ordering my boat I wrote to Carl Alberg and asked him for advice. He answered that he would recommend it and I would have a better boat. It cost me $80 extra. The builder, Kurt Hansen, after installing mine, said that he would not do any more as the mould had to be shipped to a different foundry to be cast and it was too much of a hassle. The weight remained the same giving me a little more room under the cabin sole. The boat was # 78 with black hull, gold cove stripe, white boot top and green anti-fouling. I named her Caliban after the character in Shakespeare's 'The Tempest' She won the Great Lakes Championship three years running. The last I heard of her was when she was shipped to San Francisco a number of years ago."
From the Alberg Site Mentioned
SV Cloud Duster

[BrianGJS]

You might contact Nye Boat Works in Foxboro Ontario. Nathan, the owner has extensive experience having been involved in the manufacture and repair of Alberg boats.

Hope this helps.

Brian

[Disailor]

I use rubbing alcohol (minimum 70%) to absorb & then evaporate water from hard to reach places.
DC

[NomadX]

Originally Posted by Disailor

I use rubbing alcohol (minimum 70%) to absorb & then evaporate water from hard to reach places.
DC

Yea i thought bout that. I dont want to trap any water and moisture when i glass over it.

[xxxxx]

Originally Posted by NomadX

Yea i thought bout that. I dont want to trap any water and moisture when i glass over it.

Hey NomadX,

How's this working out for you?

I'm in the same position as you are. My boat is a 1975 Alberg 30. The fiberglass layer over the keel long ago delaminated from the inside of the hull. Someone tried unsuccessfully to address the issue in the past.

You can see the ballast is cast iron--as is every other Alberg 30. It is bedded/set in some type of masonry. The masonry bedding looks like sand mix/mortar to me, but from what I've read, underneath that there may be vermiculite.

I plan to use denatured alcohol to get rid of any remaining moisture.


Then, I need to re-do the fiberglass (probably over a layer of rigid foam for a nice smooth clean surface).


Any input is appreciated!

[NomadX]

[QUOTE=xxxxx;3114436]Hey NomadX,

How's this working out for you?

I'm in the same position as you are. My boat is a 1975 Alberg 30. The fiberglass layer over the keel long ago delaminated from the inside of the hull. Someone tried unsuccessfully to address the issue in the past.

You can see the ballast is cast iron--as is every other Alberg 30. It is bedded/set in some type of masonry. The masonry bedding looks like sand mix/mortar to me, but from what I've read, underneath that there may be vermiculite.

I plan to use denatured alcohol to get rid of any remaining moisture.


Then, I need to re-do the fiberglass (probably over a layer of rigid foam for a nice smooth clean surface).


Any input is appreciated![/QUOTE

After i cut out all the fake floor boards and bulkheads out of the bilge, i scrubbed tha hell out of the floor and bilge walls with break cleaner and acetone until there was no oil left. I had it dry for a while. Looked dry to me. Then i grinded the iron with my angle grinder until all the rusty layer was removed. I too removed the last of the cracked glass enclosure. I spread a nice layer of thickened epoxy on it and laid up four layers of cloth. Then i cut new bulkheads and glassed em back in place. I also added a pvc pipe for drainage from the first bilge section to the very aft section directly, without contaminating the middle section, since im upgrading my bilge into a integral water tank in the future (Got that idea from atomvoyager, https://youtu.be/mtj7tVZ3uUo. It also keeps the middle section dry and clean until i have done so.

Buy a gallon of acetone or break cleaner and a scrubbing brush that doesnt disintegrate. Scrub it with a generous amount of either, and after removing the fluid throw a hair dryer into the bilge. It will dry it out pretty nicely since acetone and break cleaner evaporate quickly. And with it the water.

[xxxxx]

Hey, that looks great man. Thanks for the pictures!


Glad to see it worked out for you.



Mine is a liner-type A30, but I've had to cut that section of liner out, so I'll be building bulkheads in that space as you did, and reinforcing.



My holding tank was in the bilge cavity nearest the head but has been removed--switching to a composting head. I'll instead be putting my freshwater tank in that position (atom voyages ), which was previously located in the v-berth. I think I'm going to use an array of HDPE tanks between the bulkheads.


Curiose, what kind of cloth did you end up using?


Cheers,

[NomadX]

Originally Posted by xxxxx

Hey, that looks great man. Thanks for the pictures!


Glad to see it worked out for you.



Mine is a liner-type A30, but I've had to cut that section of liner out, so I'll be building bulkheads in that space as you did, and reinforcing.



My holding tank was in the bilge cavity nearest the head but has been removed--switching to a composting head. I'll instead be putting my freshwater tank in that position (atom voyages ), which was previously located in the v-berth. I think I'm going to use an array of HDPE tanks between the bulkheads.


Curiose, what kind of cloth did you end up using?


Cheers,

I used 10oz cloth and 5:1 epoxy from total boat. I bought 25 yd of cloth. I laid up 3 layers on the bilge walls and 4 layers on the bottom of the bilge and then another layer over the drain pipe and some more for the bulkheads. I have some left for whatever else i have to glass. I thought about tanks between bulkheads too, but unless you will use custom fabricated tanks that are made to precisely fit the shape of the bilge, you will loose many gallons that would fit in there than if it was an integrated one. I also imagine custom fabricated tanks will not be cheap. And to add to that you have to all connect them in some way. I also looked at water bladders which could work but the best in terms of gallons for the space is integral. However in the V-berth i most likely remove the old tank and replace it with a triangular bladder tank which i could remove and use the space for storage if i would not have the need for that much water. https://www.ahoycaptain.com/Plastimo_Watertanks.html or https://www.bayteccontainers.com/waterbags.html

[xxxxx]

Thanks pal; appreciate the update!


Alberg 30s are great and only made better by the community.


Here's an update from today. Got the keel ballast exposed. I read that the cast iron is bedded in vermiculite but to me it seems more like a sand/clay mixture. Who knows... onward and forward and onward


Clay absorbant (absorb-all, aka kitty litter) was used to clean the bulk of the bilge. I used methyl hydrate to clean the keel cavity walls today, and some xylene.

It ain't over yet. Water based degreaser and acetone to follow, maybe tomorrow.



There is very little rust. The sand/clay/cement (not sure) seems to be saturated with used motor oil. I'd like to think this is just from 40 years of leaking, but I have a feeling someone poured some down before the previous attempted repair...'least the cast iron ballast isn't rusting much. Only the fore area has a bit of surface rust. I'll wire brush that and convert the rust before sealing.


I drilled a 3/4" hole at the bottom of the keel to drain any trapped water. Freeze/thaw cycles = no bueno.

[Michael Pope]

Hi looks like you are doing a Grand Job. I have done similar in the past.
I am very conservative --- maybe because i have spent time at sea in inverted yachts ( not a happy time _) I also have witnessed a vessel similar to yours experience at least TWO Gs While inverted from sliding down an extreeme wave alredy rotated in roll more than 120 deg and smacking into the back of the preceding wave.
I think if I was doing the job I might lay in two or three heavy glass floors. .
I have seen old glass ( Cal 25 plus) boats develop a fatigue crack running fore and aft at the minimum radius point of the filet between the keel side and bottom presumably from the bending moment on the keel root from pounding to wind ward. At big heel angles.
C&C used a neat trick of laying up a roll of mostly warp -fiber biaxial woven roving Using the full width of the roving for along enough length to take it from the Sole across ,down into the sump across the ballast to the other sole and then cutting at a bias to have the skinny end go right out to the turn of the bilge. They would just cut the glass to size and trapezoidal shape --lay it on a piece of Poly sheet and wet it out liberally. Then making the first fold over about 3 inches wide , and starting at the narrow part Roll it up into a tight-- (except for the first fold)
bundle . Lay it in place and work it down to shape leaving a small piece of
plastic pipe as a limber hole at each side of the ballast. They had good glass men and they would make it look easy -- but it was hard to do it neatly--
I had a C&C 33 that I raced very hard that was built like that and it worked well and was light. Over kill perhaps when the boat is new but not when the polyester is 40 years old. Hell I am a young 87 and some mornings I wish I
had some stiffeners here and There !! We expect a lot from these old sailors! Mike Pope

[NomadX]

Originally Posted by xxxxx

Thanks pal; appreciate the update!


Alberg 30s are great and only made better by the community.


Here's an update from today. Got the keel ballast exposed. I read that the cast iron is bedded in vermiculite but to me it seems more like a sand/clay mixture. Who knows... onward and forward and onward


Clay absorbant (absorb-all, aka kitty litter) was used to clean the bulk of the bilge. I used methyl hydrate to clean the keel cavity walls today, and some xylene.

It ain't over yet. Water based degreaser and acetone to follow, maybe tomorrow.



There is very little rust. The sand/clay/cement (not sure) seems to be saturated with used motor oil. I'd like to think this is just from 40 years of leaking, but I have a feeling someone poured some down before the previous attempted repair...'least the cast iron ballast isn't rusting much. Only the fore area has a bit of surface rust. I'll wire brush that and convert the rust before sealing.


I drilled a 3/4" hole at the bottom of the keel to drain any trapped water. Freeze/thaw cycles = no bueno.

Welcome. Was any water trapped in the bottom of your keel when you drilled or was it dry? When I initially drained my bilge there was about 5 gal of water in it. But there is no indication of any trapped water in the bottom of my keel

[xxxxx]

Originally Posted by NomadX

Welcome. Was any water trapped in the bottom of your keel when you drilled or was it dry? When I initially drained my bilge there was about 5 gal of water in it. But there is no indication of any trapped water in the bottom of my keel

No water ran out of the keel but the masonry is damp with water and oil.


I think I'll re-fiberglass the bilge and drill a few other small holes around the bottom of the keel and let it do its thing until I get to finishing the bottom.


I may pour denatured alcohol around the ballast to displace and evaporate the water.


Did you have a space between the cast iron ballast and the keel walls? If so what did you do, if anything, to bring it flush?

[dyamakuchi]

Hi everyone, I'm Dave. I have a 30' Alberg, Hull #47 'Aquila.' I'm actually interested in pulling her iron ballast and replacing it with lead batteries.



Any suggestions? How wide and long is the ballast? I've written the Alberg 30 owners group just now:


Public-List@lists.alberg30.org


I just wanted to check in here too...


Thanks for any help! Best Regards,



Dave

[Don C L]

Welcome aboard Dave! I suspect you may have trouble with replacing your ballast with batteries but I'll be interested to hear how it goes.

[dyamakuchi]

Hi Don, thanks for the welcome aboard. The Alberg group was _very_ helpful, and sufficed to say, I'm probably not pulling that ballast for a minute, if ever.



The group identified one concern within a few hours, the batteries' density. Lead is 11+ g/cc Iron is <8 The A30 _already_ sits a bit higher than designed because they substituted Iron in production for cost. The batteries measure out to be such a low density (~2.8g/cc) that the center of gravity would move a LOT higher, likely destroying her sailing characteristics, and that's _if_ 3300lbs of lead _batteries_ will even fit given their low density...tho I could obviously put them somewhere.



(Basically) she'd probably flip in a heartbeat unless I say, extended her keel to move the center of gravity back down. Tho the A30- group did offer good evidence that that much battery would give a nice healthy cruise time. :-)


Plan B: electric motor with much smaller batteries, leave the keel ballast in place (for now,) and a little Honda (EU2200i) generator for fast charge on the water if needed. I guess I'm leaving the saddlebag tanks for now. :-( What the hell. 2200W = ~3hp, and that Honda is very efficient. Mostly I just want in and out of the harbor anyway, but still.



If her ballast starts having problems like I'm seeing in this thread, which I don't think it has yet, then I'm revisiting. It looks like those ballasts might just lift right out with a crane. Maybe replacing the iron with half of the weight in lead, and the other half in batteries could be a workable tradeoff. IDK.


I'll post here if/when I launch her with the electric and give you an update. Hopefully soon. Thanks again!


Dave