1x19 Stainless Steel Wire Rope vs. Synthetic Standing Rigging

[SteveSadler]

I am curious what influences the life span on both materials. I've read posts with claims of 30 years of stainless 1/19, and can understand why, as the material is very resistent to corrosion, and most stainless fittings last a lifetime on a boat in the same environment. Yet 5 to 8 years for dyneema protected from uv's with a cover seems a bit conservative given these synthetics lifespan is virtually forever. My question is how do you inspect dyneema and what do you look for?

[blubaju]

Hairline cracks, corrosive pinholes, unseen hidden holes even beside "regular" fatigue are the danger for SS, Xray survey might help, but who does it? When I choose Dyneema not even my supplier could tell me how long it will last. We use tuck splice, that is almost a meter, it wants to be prestreched. From my former company I still have one of those chain lifts, a few protective Layers of lumber around 2 Mahogany trees, a little computing and we streched the ropes/splices between the trees. Same I did 2 years ago when I tested the old shrouds. Breaking strength supposed 10,000kg, we reached about 8000, did not break, so maybe still good enough for me.

Dyneema creeps, does slowly become longer under stress, not sailing, release the power! A sign of age, the former smooth surface becomes more velvet like. If this is a Lippmann-feature or general, I do not know, our Dyneema is without any sleeve, exept for chafe protection.

[Pete7]

If you have a furling headsail what do you do about the forestay when fitting Dyneema?

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

Insurer will want both replaced by 10 years. That is a fairly high aspect rig on that boat. Would go with wire myself.

Originally Posted by Orion Jim

In Europe it is very common for insurers to require rig inspections and standing rigging replacement at regular intervals.

Really? Pantaenious wanted a survey before they would insure us. They were happy to accept the pre-purchase survey with a letter confirming that the only major problem of a rusty anchor chain had been replaced. Is there any hard evidence of an insurer writing to a customer saying you must.....

We replaced the SS rigging at the 12 year point because it was convenient but there was no requirement from Pantaenious for us to do this. The major factor was some of the lower rigging had that white plastic stuff on so sheets roll easily which I am not in favour of.

Pete

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by SteveSadler

I am curious what influences the life span on both materials. I've read posts with claims of 30 years of stainless 1/19, and can understand why, as the material is very resistent to corrosion, and most stainless fittings last a lifetime on a boat in the same environment. Yet 5 to 8 years for dyneema protected from uv's with a cover seems a bit conservative given these synthetics lifespan is virtually forever. My question is how do you inspect dyneema and what do you look for?

Yeh sure there are many 30 and 40 year old boats with their orginal SS rigging and masts still standing.

Thats not to say that next sail the mast wont come down. A number of masts have come down from failed Stainless rigging. Hence many Insurance companies wanting it changed at 10 or 15 years.

Currently a lot of the Stainless is being supplied out of China of questionable quality.

Dyneema has only been used as Sail boat stsnding rigging for around the last 10 years. So far the results on how it is lasting is very good. Time will truely tell. However in that time they've obviously enjoyed the benefits of it and maybe feel even when the do have to replace it it was good value.

However Sailboats aside Dyneema has been used in the Logging for skylines, Commercial fishing for crab pots and nets and Shipping industries, for mooring lines for much longer in place of steel cables. Those guys seem convinced its the best stuff for them.

[blubaju]

In my case, design 2009, forestay is the only stainless, even that is attached to the mast with a Dyneema sling caring for the mast rotation. No metal fittings up there.

Nowadays I might think about a 'Structural Furling Forestay' system (Karver, Colligo etc). Right now this question is not on table, no advice from me

[psk125]

Since it's been around a while, we are familiar with the problems that stainless brings with it: crevice corrosion, kinks... Synthetic fibers have not been around as long, but UV degradation and chafe are already obvious issues. What others remain to be uncovered as usage continues? Swages on wire are made by a machine, each one pretty much the same as the next. Are all the splices in a synthetic rig equally well-made? Were they done by a professional, by the experienced owner, or by his 10-year-old child? How do you tell? Does it matter? Racers will try anything that provides them an advantage and they adopt synthetic for that reason. To save weight for racing, Hereshoff built Reliance with a steel hull and an aluminum deck. (Electolysis, anyone?) They won their America's Cup races, but where is Reliance now? For standing rigging, hemp, manilla, and galvanized wire have all been made largely obsolete. In ten years, maybe rod and SS wire will be too. They all still work, however, if you're willing to put up with each of their limitations. If you're tossing a coin to make a decision, should it be a Euro, a Dollar, a Ruble or a Renminbi? Swiss Francs might be the best bet, but they're disqualified by not having a coastline.Sailors are a cautious bunch - for good reason. The sea takes its time to find weaknesses, and never stops looking. Good luck deciding!

[blubaju]

Originally Posted by Pete7

If you have a furling headsail what do you do about the forestay when fitting Dyneema?





Really? Pantaenious wanted a survey before they would insure us. They were happy to accept the pre-purchase survey with a letter confirming that the only major problem of a rusty anchor chain had been replaced. Is there any hard evidence of an insurer writing to a customer saying you must.....

We replaced the SS rigging at the 12 year point because it was convenient but there was no requirement from Pantaenious for us to do this. The major factor was some of the lower rigging had that white plastic stuff on so sheets roll easily which I am not in favour of.

Pete

Pantaenius isn't Pantaenius but mysterious!

Local Pantaenius offices seem to be quite independent, different countries, different requirements & quotes.

Don't forget, they are brokers!

[Benz]

Originally Posted by psk125

Since it's been around a while, we are familiar with the problems that stainless brings with it: crevice corrosion, kinks... Synthetic fibers have not been around as long, but UV degradation and chafe are already obvious issues. What others remain to be uncovered as usage continues? Swages on wire are made by a machine, each one pretty much the same as the next. Are all the splices in a synthetic rig equally well-made? Were they done by a professional, by the experienced owner, or by his 10-year-old child? How do you tell? Does it matter? Racers will try anything that provides them an advantage and they adopt synthetic for that reason. To save weight for racing, Hereshoff built Reliance with a steel hull and an aluminum deck. (Electolysis, anyone?) They won their America's Cup races, but where is Reliance now? For standing rigging, hemp, manilla, and galvanized wire have all been made largely obsolete. In ten years, maybe rod and SS wire will be too. They all still work, however, if you're willing to put up with each of their limitations. If you're tossing a coin to make a decision, should it be a Euro, a Dollar, a Ruble or a Renminbi? Swiss Francs might be the best bet, but they're disqualified by not having a coastline.Sailors are a cautious bunch - for good reason. The sea takes its time to find weaknesses, and never stops looking. Good luck deciding!

And it is those obvious limitations of SS--crevice corrosion, chinese sourcing, weight aloft, difficulty of working--that has led us to try something better. Pressed swages are not all the same--if you run them through the dies too many times, the metal work-hardens and gets brittle. If not enough times, there's these little "wings," and you wonder if it's pressed enough.
A splice in dyneema is easy to see whether it was done right: You can see the length of bury and the taper by visual inspection. A wrongly-done brummel lock is dead obvious. There's not much else can be done wrong.

For those who are keeping their 1x19 for 30 years: yikes! It only took a few looks at some crevice-corroded parts to convince me that keeping SS much beyond it's rated life is a huge toss of the dice.

For those worried about chafe: if there's so much chafe on your boat that a few well-placed fairleads and judicious leather won't handle it, you need to re-design how everything is run. I have a gaff-rigged cutter with synthetic shrouds, and all the ignorant assured me that chafe would be outrageous. Well, I ran my lines properly, and it isn't. I'm still using some original sheets and halyards ten years and 12,000 sea miles later.

For those worried about machete-wielding maniacs:

[SailRedemption]

Originally Posted by Benz

And it is those obvious limitations of SS--crevice corrosion, chinese sourcing, weight aloft, difficulty of working--that has led us to try something better. Pressed swages are not all the same--if you run them through the dies too many times, the metal work-hardens and gets brittle. If not enough times, there's these little "wings," and you wonder if it's pressed enough.
A splice in dyneema is easy to see whether it was done right: You can see the length of bury and the taper by visual inspection. A wrongly-done brummel lock is dead obvious. There's not much else can be done wrong.

For those who are keeping their 1x19 for 30 years: yikes! It only took a few looks at some crevice-corroded parts to convince me that keeping SS much beyond it's rated life is a huge toss of the dice.

For those worried about chafe: if there's so much chafe on your boat that a few well-placed fairleads and judicious leather won't handle it, you need to re-design how everything is run. I have a gaff-rigged cutter with synthetic shrouds, and all the ignorant assured me that chafe would be outrageous. Well, I ran my lines properly, and it isn't. I'm still using some original sheets and halyards ten years and 12,000 sea miles later.

For those worried about machete-wielding maniacs:

I would say it would be easier to cut SS shrouds with bolt cutters than my synthetic ones with a machete. This stuff dulls ceramic knives pretty quickly. Either way, it's a silly argument and a weak point.

[pjwilliams35]

For what it's worth, I have recently replaced the standing rigging on my boat (Starlight 35)just after buying it. The original was 22 yrs. old and well past it's 'use by' date. Prior to replacing it I took out insurance and no mention was made of the rigging but when I was speaking to the surveyor he said that were anything to happen and I made a claim, the insurers would take the age of the rigging into account and use it to reduce any payout.
I would have loved to replace the S/S with Dyneema but there was no-one with any expertise or experience available (this was in Greece). If I'd been anywhere near Colligo I'd definitely have used synthetic.

[lordgeoff]

Originally Posted by stormalong

Not having had synthetic my main concern would be chafe resistance. I know it is strong but will it take the rigors of cruising. My preference would be stainless steel. I have had rod for 28 years and have complete confidence in it. Replaced once and I think it could have just been reheadded.

I put Dyeema in the same category as Swivels incorporated in ground tackle.
Understand the theory but just can't bring myself to use either......
As a cruiser I like proven simplicity purely so I can sleep better.
If I bought a boat with Dyeema I would replace with new SS and negotiate the price accordingly.
Just me. Yep no logic. But I'll sleep better.

[blubaju]

Pulling that security pin might be easier than carry a rope cutter for stainless. And yes, cutting Dyneema with a machete will be much fun, easier might be to use a cigar

Ropes have been used some thousand years before they came up with steel, technology how to avoid chafe well established. A vibrating steel rope will crack much faster then Dyneema.

All mail order suppliers carry Dyneema, instead of yacht supply look for fishing industry. There are dozens manufacturers here in Europe. Colligo is like Apple, good and very good in styling, you pay the price for over sophistication. A simple aluminum sheave with small holes on the rim for seizing solves the problem and costs a fraction. 10 years in 3 months in tropical Philippines and never a problem.

[thinwater]

Good thread, with good points and some silly points.


Colligo recently posted this 10-year study on Dux rigging. Since it is way over strength for UV, it is bullet proof for the first 8 years, but after that it seems to go away fast. If you live farther north 10 years is probably safe.


But don't assume you can tell by looks. I had an old stay break on a new-to-me boat one month in. It was old, I was going to replace it in the spring, but there was no visual evidence and it broke mid-line (no chafe). Fortunately, the rig was not damaged and stayed up. I've also had stainless snap, and there was visible evidence that time (it was a plastic covered stay and there was internal corrosion). I've had stainless crack, but I could see the cracks. Honestly, I think aging Dyneema is more difficult to judge.

[SailRedemption]

"When sized correctly, a 60% loss in break strength will present a higher break strength than wire in the same application."

So after 10 years you loose 60% of your shrouds strength and its still stronger than the wire that it replaced. The wire after 10 years, how much strength did it lose from crevice corrosion or work hardening/cracks?

Is there a clear cut winner? I don't know. But I believe everyone should have an intimate relationship with their rigging, synthetic or not.

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by michaeld

We will be replacing our standing rigging in the very near future. Our 1985 Kaufman 47 was constructed with 1x19 Stainless Steel Wire Rope. I have been researching synthetic standing rigging, and it appeals to me in many ways. However, I am also looking into the future, as we will probably sell Imagine in ten or so years.

My question to the forum is, "All other things being equal, is a boat with SS standing rigging more desirable to a prospective buyer than a boat with synthetic standing rigging?"

Be aware, that synthetic chafes abd fuzzes up in a few years, and 6 years is a closer replacement period


Also, metal rigging expands and contracts with an aluminum mast, at a somewhat similar rate.


Synthetic is the oposite, so if your rig is bar tight in summer, it will be quite slack in winter. I know first hand!