ABYC rule for electrical with fuel lines?

[jhulmer]

I am currently in the middle of a refit and was routing my new DC power cables to the panel and realized that I was putting them in the same chase as the diesel fuel lines.

So what is the ABYC rule for fuel lines in proximity to electrical wiring?

I couldn't find anything in my searches.

Thanks for your help.

[longjonsilver]

Which raises a question: Where can we find the ABYC rules in general and electrical standards in particular?
thanks
jon

[leboyd]

Standards List - American Boat and Yacht Council

But you have to buy them.

[jhulmer]

Originally Posted by leboyd

Standards List - American Boat and Yacht Council

But you have to buy them.

Thanks leboyd,
I found the ABYC site but $500 bucks for the standards is more then I want to pay just for my personal boat refit.

I am hoping one of our members here has a set of the standards or knows the answer.

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by jhulmer

Thanks leboyd,
I found the ABYC site but $500 bucks for the standards is more then I want to pay just for my personal boat refit.

I am hoping one of our members here has a set of the standards or knows the answer.

Exactly.

Rant: Why do they make it so hard to meet safety standards? Why do they make standards if they don't want you to know what they are? Dumb

jon

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by jhulmer

I am currently in the middle of a refit and was routing my new DC power cables to the panel and realized that I was putting them in the same chase as the diesel fuel lines.

So what is the ABYC rule for fuel lines in proximity to electrical wiring?

I couldn't find anything in my searches.

Thanks for your help.

ABYC 11.5.3 IGNITION PROTECTION might be the most relevant section I think, but that mainly relates to electrical stuff in proximity to gasoline. But diesel is exempted from this section.

You should endeavour to position things such that an overheated conductor can never touch the fuel hose. Ideally in separate chases, but you can probably maintain good separation by careful strapping, or maybe protecting the fuel hose with a length of shielding or pipe where it runs close to or beside wiring.

Of anything, I would worry most about crushing, chafing or nicking a fuel line when running other wires etc through the same path.

The above isn't exhaustive, there may be a more general reference to wiring near to other pipes etc elsewhere in the ABYC spec.

* * *

ABYC is a voluntary standards body, funded by memberships and by sale of copies of those standards, most usually to professionals, and by administering a certification program together with providing training and testing to that certification. This is really no different from any other standards body, including other US electrical and plumbing standards, for example.

You can usually get all the info you need to work close to standards from a good book like Nigel Calder's. Some companies, eg Westmarine, provide online info that draws on ABYC specs, and sometimes even reprints some sections.

[jhulmer]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

Exactly.

Rant: Why do they make it so hard to meet safety standards? Why do they make standards if they don't want you to know what they are? Dumb

jon

amen brother!

[jhulmer]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

ABYC 11.5.3 IGNITION PROTECTION might be the most relevant section I think, but that mainly relates to electrical stuff in proximity to gasoline. But diesel is exempted from this section.

You should endeavour to position things such that an overheated conductor can never touch the fuel hose. Ideally in separate chases, but you can probably maintain good separation by careful strapping, or maybe protecting the fuel hose with a length of shielding or pipe where it runs close to or beside wiring.

Of anything, I would worry most about crushing, chafing or nicking a fuel line when running other wires etc through the same path.

The above isn't exhaustive, there may be a more general reference to wiring near to other pipes etc elsewhere in the ABYC spec.

* * *

ABYC is a voluntary standards body, funded by memberships and by sale of copies of those standards, most usually to professionals, and by administering a certification program together with providing training and testing to that certification. This is really no different from any other standards body, including other US electrical and plumbing standards, for example.

You can usually get all the info you need to work close to standards from a good book like Nigel Calder's. Some companies, eg Westmarine, provide online info that draws on ABYC specs, and sometimes even reprints some sections.

Thanks for the information.

The logical thing is to run them separated but that creates its on problems of making a new chase for the wires in a very tight spot.

But to your point, the thought of a wire shorting and being against a fuel line makes that option more appealing.

[Captsteve53]

Gentlemen, below is in regarding Fuel line installations for ABYC and other similar bodies, the actual situation of being associated is in this section not specifically covered but can advise you as a Marine Surveyor (IIMS and Lloyd's small ship specialist).that combing the two is un acceptable under class rules,HOW EVER as many small craft (in the US) are not required to be inspected then many do not or are required to follow the rule:

Common sense how ever should rule and there fore do not associate the two, it is covered really under the section of free and clear inspections,AND ALL ACCESSORIES MUST BE INDEPENDENTLY MOUNTED,

The Rules::

§ 182.455 Fuel piping.
(a)Materials and workmanship. The materials and construction of fuel lines, including pipe, tube, and hose, must comply with the requirements of this paragraph.

(1) Fuel lines must be annealed tubing of copper, nickel-copper, or copper-nickel having a minimum wall thickness of 0.9 millimeters (0.035 inch) except that:

(i) Diesel fuel piping of other materials, such as seamless steel pipe or tubing, which provide equivalent safety may be used;

(ii) Diesel fuel piping of aluminum is acceptable on aluminum hull vessels provided it is a minimum of Schedule 80 wall thickness; and

(iii) when used, flexible hose must meet the requirements of § 182.720(e) of this part.

(2) Tubing connections and fittings must be of nonferrous drawn or forged metal of the flared type except that flareless fittings of the non-bite type may be used when the tubing system is of nickel-copper or copper-nickel. When making tube connections, the tubing must be cut square and flared by suitable tools. Tube ends must be annealed before flaring.

(3) Cocks are prohibited except for the solid bottom type with tapered plugs and union bonnets.

(4) Valves for gasoline fuel must be of a suitable nonferrous type.

(b)Installation. The installation of fuel lines, including pipe, tube, and hose, must comply with the requirements of this paragraph.

(1) Gasoline fuel lines must be connected at the top of the fuel tank and run at or above the level of the tank top to a point as close to the engine connection as practicable, except that lines below the level of the tank top are permitted if equipped with anti-siphon protection.

(2) Diesel fuel lines may be connected to the fuel tank at or near the bottom of the tank.

(3) Fuel lines must be accessible, protected from mechanical injury, and effectively secured against excessive movement and vibration by the use of soft nonferrous metal straps which have no sharp edges and are insulated to protect against corrosion. Where passing through bulkheads, fuel lines must be protected by close fitting ferrules or stuffing boxes. All fuel lines and fittings must be accessible for inspection.

(4) Shutoff valves, installed so as to close against the fuel flow, must be fitted in the fuel supply lines, one at the tank connection and one at the engine end of the fuel line to stop fuel flow when servicing accessories. The shutoff valve at the tank must be manually operable from outside the compartment in which the valve is located, preferably from an accessible position on the weather deck. If the handle to the shutoff valve at the tank is located inside the machinery space, it must be located so that the operator does not have to reach more than 300 millimeters (12 inches) into the machinery space and the valve handle must be shielded from flames by the same material the hull is constructed of, or some noncombustible material. Electric solenoid valves must not be used, unless used in addition to the manual valve.

(5) A loop of copper tubing or a short length of flexible hose must be installed in the fuel supply line at or near the engines. The flexible hose must meet the requirements of § 182.720(e).

(6) A suitable metal marine type strainer, meeting the requirements of the engine manufacturer, must be fitted in the fuel supply line in the engine compartment. Strainers must be leak free. Strainers must be the type of opening on top for cleaning screens. A drip pan fitted with flame screen must be installed under gasoline strainers. Fuel filter and strainer bowls must be highly resistant to shattering due to mechanical impact and resistant to failure due to thermal shock. Fuel filters fitted with bowls of other than steel construction must be approved by the Commandant and be protected from mechanical damage. Approval of bowls of other than steel construction will specify if a flame shield is required.

(7) All accessories installed in the fuel line must be independently supported.

(8) Outlets in gasoline fuel lines that would permit drawing fuel below deck, for any purpose, are prohibited.

(9) Valves for removing water or impurities from diesel fuel in water traps or strainers are permitted. These valves must be provided with caps or plugs to prevent fuel leakage.

(c)Alternative procedures. A vessel of not more than 19.8 meters (65 feet), carrying no more than 12 passengers, with machinery powered by gasoline and a fuel system built in accordance with ABYC H-24 (incorporated by reference; see 46 CFR 175.600), or 33 CFR 183, subpart J, or with machinery powered by diesel fuel and a fuel system built in accordance with ABYC H-33 (incorporated by reference; see 46 CFR 175.600), will be considered as meeting the requirements of this section.

[CGD 85-080, 61 FR 986, Jan. 10, 1996, as amended by USCG-2001-10224, 66 FR 48621, Sept. 21, 2001; USCG-2004-18884, 69 FR 58351, Sept. 30, 2004; USCG-2003-16630, 73 FR 65209, Oct. 31, 2008; USCG-2014-0688, 79 FR 58288, Sept. 29, 2014]

Respectfully Steve

[Captsteve53]

Gentlemen, Further to my previous post i found the section i was looking for, it is covered under electrical installations rather than fuel:This taken from the Surveyors guide rather than the rule:

3.2/R REQUIREMENT
3.3.3/R REQUIREMENT
There is a risk of sparks from damaged cables igniting fuels carried
in adjacent fuel and gas pipes.
Are all cables clear of LPG and fuel supply lines?
Check the clearance of all electrical cables that can be seen from
LPG or fuel supply lines.
Check any conduit is of a non-conducting material.
Electrical cables must be installed clear of LPG and fuel supply lines
unless they are in a conduit made of non-conducting material.
Notes – This check applies to both a.c. and d.c. cables.
Cables verified as double-insulated (sheathed) cables are not subject
to this check.

Note the above proviso how ever, but again the fuel lines must remain clear for visual inspection?

Cheers Steve

[longjonsilver]

Thanks Guys, i have Nigel Calders Electrical and Mechanical book. Its good to know that his recommended practices meet ABYC standards.
blessings
jon

[steve77]

If your positive DC cable that is routed in the same chase as the fuel line is protected by a fuse I think you would go a long way towards making this a safer installation. This would effectively eliminate the failure mode of a fault in the cable being an ignition source for the diesel fuel lines.

Putting the diesel fuel lines in a "nonconducting conduit" has merit. They can be in the same chase, but in a separate conduit. How long of a distance are you talking about? Perhaps that may work for you?

Best of luck!

Steve

[jhulmer]

Originally Posted by Captsteve53

Gentlemen, Further to my previous post i found the section i was looking for, it is covered under electrical installations rather than fuel:This taken from the Surveyors guide rather than the rule:

3.2/R REQUIREMENT
3.3.3/R REQUIREMENT
There is a risk of sparks from damaged cables igniting fuels carried
in adjacent fuel and gas pipes.
Are all cables clear of LPG and fuel supply lines?
Check the clearance of all electrical cables that can be seen from
LPG or fuel supply lines.
Check any conduit is of a non-conducting material.
Electrical cables must be installed clear of LPG and fuel supply lines
unless they are in a conduit made of non-conducting material.
Notes – This check applies to both a.c. and d.c. cables.
Cables verified as double-insulated (sheathed) cables are not subject
to this check.

Note the above proviso how ever, but again the fuel lines must remain clear for visual inspection?

Cheers Steve

Steve,
yes this is what I was looking for, a clear answer as to what a surveyor will be looking for as well as safety.

It's hard to know just what is acceptable, next to each other, separated by 2", completely separated in different chases or conduit?

I have the fuel lines and the wire in separate nonconductive conduit. The run with fuel and wire is only about 48" long.

And to Steve77 point, all the cables are protected by fuses.

Something in the rule § 182.455 Fuel piping section (c) caught my eye:

(c)Alternative procedures. A vessel of not more than 19.8 meters (65 feet), carrying no more than 12 passengers, with machinery powered by gasoline and a fuel system built in accordance with ABYC H-24 (incorporated by reference; see 46 CFR 175.600), or 33 CFR 183, subpart J, or with machinery powered by diesel fuel and a fuel system built in accordance with ABYC H-33 (incorporated by reference; see 46 CFR 175.600), will be considered as meeting the requirements of this section.

What are these Alternative procedures in ABYC H-33 (incorporated by reference; see 46 CFR 175.600?

Given the precautions I am taking by separating the wires from the fuel lines in the same chase is adequate and safe but I don't know what I don't know. All this input is much appreciated.

Thank you all!

[jhulmer]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

Thanks Guys, i have Nigel Calders Electrical and Mechanical book. Its good to know that his recommended practices meet ABYC standards.
blessings
jon

Jon
Yes excellent reference. I have both editions and every boat owner should have a copy on the shelf.

As well as Don Casey's book: Sailboat Maintenance Manuel

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by jhulmer

As well as Don Casey's book: Sailboat Maintenance Manuelsic

i have don casey's book as well. i have been studying the aforementioned link as well. Here it is again:
SmartGauge Electronics - Technical Section - page 1

jon