anchor question

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Muaddib1116

I think I'd go with a bruce or cqr over a delta. Both are probably easily found at marine consignment or on craigslist.

In my experience, for whatever little it may be worth, having used all of these anchors on my own boats:


1. Delta is a big step up from CQR. Sets much better, much more reliable.
2. Most Bruces on the market are fake aftermarket ones. These mostly work really badly. I've used them on charter boats. The genuine Bruce is not bad, better than CQR, but has some weaknesses.
3. CQR has a moving part with a hinge pin. Do NOT buy one of these used, sight unseen! Once the hinge pin wears -- it it will -- then the anchor becomes almost useless. If you (for some reason) really want a CQR, buy a new one, or carefully inspected and little used one.


Or you could buy a used Rocna, Manson, etc. Or best of all -- some one's ugly Spade, with bad galvanizing, which you can paint, or just use a lot to keep the rust down.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

In my experience, for whatever little it may be worth, having used all of these anchors on my own boats:


1. Delta is a big step up from CQR. Sets much better, much more reliable.
2. Most Bruces on the market are fake aftermarket ones. These mostly work really badly. I've used them on charter boats. The genuine Bruce is not bad, better than CQR, but has some weaknesses.
3. CQR has a moving part with a hinge pin. Do NOT buy one of these used, sight unseen! Once the hinge pin wears -- it it will -- then the anchor becomes almost useless. If you (for some reason) really want a CQR, buy a new one, or carefully inspected and little used one.


Or you could buy a used Rocna, Manson, etc. Or best of all -- some one's ugly Spade, with bad galvanizing, which you can paint, or just use a lot to keep the rust down.

So you can see the wear he mentioned above on my CQR near the pin area. There is a boat next to me rarely used with a 25 lb CQR on the bow.

There is very little sloop around the pin whereas on mine it's somewhat elongated especially on the bottom side you can barely see in photo

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Panope

Chief among those folks would be me.

I am genuinely interested is all experiences with anchors. Please give us detailed examples of yours not matching mine so that I might learn even more.

Steve

Steve, I have no scientific test results, only years of observations.

I have a 44lb (20kg) Bruce which I have used on my 43' sloop for 27 years in a great variety of anchoring situations around the world. I have anchored in 12' of water and 95 feet of water, in sand, mud, rocks, and seaweed. I have 300ft of 5/16 HT chain. I carry other anchors (primarily Danforth style) but I rarely have used any. We bought the Bruce in 1996 after repeated failures with a stainless steel CQR clone.

My observation is that this anchor has always set quickly and securely except in very rocky situations. Even then it has often set by hooking on a rock (and some times I leave it that way). We have often been in anchorages where the wind direction changes and the anchor has always reset on it's own. The only occasions I can recall where we dragged with this anchor was in soft mud in Bay of Islands, New Zealand during a 50kt storm. Ourselves and one other boat slowly dragged down wind. We reset and had no further problem, and in very rocky situation in Isle de Pines in New Caledonia where we dragged off of a steeply sloping shelf into deep water. We shifted to a new location. We have been in conditions where the 5/8 nylon snubber melted but the anchor held.

We also carry a 66lb (30kg) Bruce but we have only used it twice. On those occasions the 44 was holding but the wind and wave conditions were such that we were worried, and we changed anchor. Our boat is a 20,000lb fin keel flush deck sloop with minimal windage.

We usually set with 3:1 to 5:1 scope, sometimes more. Our technique is:

• Stop the boat head to wind at the desired location
• Lower the anchor with the "down" button while slowly motoring or drifting back
• When the length of chain has been deployed stop letting out chain
• When the boat fetches up against the anchor and chain and is pointing towards the anchor, we apply strain by reversing the engine
• We increase the power in reverse while my spouse monitors the "feel" of the chain.
• When she is satisfied that the anchor is holding we're finished and we secure.
  
• If there are waves or strong winds we deploy a single snubber, but frequently we simply leave the chain held by the windlass. We do not rig a bridle.
• If the anchor drags during setting we pick it up and reset, (this usually happens if we are moving too fast downwind during the original set)
• Occasionally we have picked up a football sized rock or piece of coral which must be removed before we can attempt to reset the anchor.
• If the wind changes direction we often back down in the new downwind direction to test that the anchor has reset.
• If I am concerned by the conditions I use an anchor alarm on my plotter. Often the alarm goes off because we have swung the opposite direction putting us outside the alarm distance.

So you can see that there is little unique about our ground tackle set-up or use, yet our results are different from yours regarding the Bruce anchor which, if I recall, you found often breaks fee under moderate load and fails to reset if the wind direction changes.

You test results do worry me, but at this point I am not inclined to change anchors.

Fred Roswold, SV Wings, Mexico

Photo: Cape Agulhas, South Africa, Winds steady at 50, wind waves in shelter at 3 feet. Bottom, presumably sand. Our Bruce held in this.

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Delta is not a really good anchor. Go for something more modern. Rocna, Spade, Excel, Mantus -- something like that. Much more effective than that.

My 35# Delta must have been a freak then. For 26 years it held our 30' 10,000lb (dry) boat through three microbursts, one tornado, and countless big blows. In mud I'd have to power it out.

People denigrate the anchor we have now- Bruce- but it seems to be fine too.

I wonder if it has more to do with technique than anchor.

[Muaddib1116]

Originally Posted by wingssail

So you can see that there is little unique about our ground tackle set-up or use, yet our results are different from yours regarding the Bruce anchor which, if I recall, you found often breaks fee under moderate load and fails to reset if the wind direction changes.

I don't think your experiences run counter to Steve's testing very much. His Bruce tests (which I admit I haven't paid as close attention to as other anchors) show lower relative performance to newer designs, but I think it's unfair to say that he's seeing the Bruce break free under moderate loads. It has lower maximum holding power than some of the new ones, but unless you have actual numbers about the load your boat has exerted on your anchor, I don't think you can make a claim about how moderate his failure loads are. Also, the veering and 180 direction changes that Steve does are relatively extreme, more so than most real world scenarios, I think.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

My 35# Delta must have been a freak then. For 26 years it held our 30' 10,000lb (dry) boat through three microbursts, one tornado, and countless big blows. In mud I'd have to power it out.

People denigrate the anchor we have now- Bruce- but it seems to be fine too.

I wonder if it has more to do with technique than anchor.

Compared to how Deltas are often sized, yours was on the large side. I often see a 35lb Delta on a 40 footer. That's likely why it performed fine. Just because an anchor isn't nearly as good as another doesn't mean it won't work provided it's big enough, in a decent bottom and set with enough scope.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Muaddib1116

I...Also, the veering and 180 direction changes that Steve does are relatively extreme, more so than most real world scenarios, I think.

I just want to add the 180 degree direction changes are not extreme or unusual. For example in La Cruz where I am based the wind direction is 240-260 every afternoon (up to 25 knots) and 75 degrees 5-12 knots every evening. Up to 60 boats anchor there during the high season.

I know of other places where this kind of winds are common.

[GrowleyMonster]

I agree a Rocna would be better than the Delta. But if you have a nice piece of overkill chain to go with the overkill anchor, you should be good to go with the Cal 20. Definitely have a more manageable spare anchor, and also an even smaller "lunch hook".

There are things you can do to make your anchor more manageable and even more secure. A retrieval line and bouy is helpful when you have big chain and anchor, but no windlass. A killick is a dead weight shackled up the chain from the anchor, and its function is to lower the angle of the rode so the anchor digs better and doesn't trip out of the bottom as easily. A second anchor out is good insurance against dragging, as well as reducing your swing circle.

If you intend to live aboard, you will probably want to get a slip, eventually, especially if you have a job ashore. Living on the hook can be a big PITA. It gets tiresome quick. Been there, tried that.

[cyrano138]

In our area, liveaboard slips are a bit of a unicorn. The last couple of marinas I spoke to put me on a waiting list that is between 2 years long and infinitely long, meaning they had stopped taking names for the list all together. It's definitely not my first choice, but I've been priced so far out of the rental market here in Southwest Florida that even working a couple of jobs as an arborist, owning my business, and an adjunct professor, I am unable to come up with enough for a $2,000 a month one bedroom apartment (and those are the cheap ones, in the kinds of places you probably wouldn't want to spend much time). So, that's why I'm planning on living on the hook. I realize it's not going to be easy. Ideally, I will work part of the year climbing trees and teaching classes, and then take a semester off and cruise a little bit.



So while i do have a budget for an anchor that would allow me to buy one new, I'm not made of money. If I were I would probably still be living on a sailboat, but I wouldn't be living on a 20 ft sailboat that you can't stand up inside of.



Having a budget, but being at least a little poor, I had hoped I could save some money by a strategy was similar to what a few people have hinted at here in the most recent posts. I figured if I can get an anchor that's just at least endorsed by one or two people under similar conditions and then go a few sizes up and put together sort of an "overkill package" of an oversized anchor and excessive chain then it'll be fine. I did a fair amount of reading about anchors before posting here, and the pattern seems to be that there is literally not a single anchor that gets a unanimous endorsement even for a given set of conditions (ie that someone won't chime in to say has failed on them).


Just getting a few people to say, yeah the Bruce worked fine for me, or the CQR worked fine for me, is I think about as much of an endorsement as anybody can hope for based on my impressions of the anchor debates online. That's all I was really looking for although I was hoping to hear from other Southwest Florida cruisers.

[Panope]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Steve, I have no scientific test results, only years of observations.

I have a 44lb (20kg) Bruce which I have used on my 43' sloop for 27 years in a great variety of anchoring situations around the world. I have anchored in 12' of water and 95 feet of water, in sand, mud, rocks, and seaweed. I have 300ft of 5/16 HT chain. I carry other anchors (primarily Danforth style) but I rarely have used any. We bought the Bruce in 1996 after repeated failures with a stainless steel CQR clone.

My observation is that this anchor has always set quickly and securely except in very rocky situations. Even then it has often set by hooking on a rock (and some times I leave it that way). We have often been in anchorages where the wind direction changes and the anchor has always reset on it's own. The only occasions I can recall where we dragged with this anchor was in soft mud in Bay of Islands, New Zealand during a 50kt storm. Ourselves and one other boat slowly dragged down wind. We reset and had no further problem, and in very rocky situation in Isle de Pines in New Caledonia where we dragged off of a steeply sloping shelf into deep water. We shifted to a new location. We have been in conditions where the 5/8 nylon snubber melted but the anchor held.

We also carry a 66lb (30kg) Bruce but we have only used it twice. On those occasions the 44 was holding but the wind and wave conditions were such that we were worried, and we changed anchor. Our boat is a 20,000lb fin keel flush deck sloop with minimal windage.

We usually set with 3:1 to 5:1 scope, sometimes more. Our technique is:

• Stop the boat head to wind at the desired location
• Lower the anchor with the "down" button while slowly motoring or drifting back
• When the length of chain has been deployed stop letting out chain
• When the boat fetches up against the anchor and chain and is pointing towards the anchor, we apply strain by reversing the engine
• We increase the power in reverse while my spouse monitors the "feel" of the chain.
• When she is satisfied that the anchor is holding we're finished and we secure.
  
• If there are waves or strong winds we deploy a single snubber, but frequently we simply leave the chain held by the windlass. We do not rig a bridle.
• If the anchor drags during setting we pick it up and reset, (this usually happens if we are moving too fast downwind during the original set)
• Occasionally we have picked up a football sized rock or piece of coral which must be removed before we can attempt to reset the anchor.
• If the wind changes direction we often back down in the new downwind direction to test that the anchor has reset.
• If I am concerned by the conditions I use an anchor alarm on my plotter. Often the alarm goes off because we have swung the opposite direction putting us outside the alarm distance.

So you can see that there is little unique about our ground tackle set-up or use, yet our results are different from yours regarding the Bruce anchor which, if I recall, you found often breaks fee under moderate load and fails to reset if the wind direction changes.

You test results do worry me, but at this point I am not inclined to change anchors.

Fred Roswold, SV Wings, Mexico

Photo: Cape Agulhas, South Africa, Winds steady at 50, wind waves in shelter at 3 feet. Bottom, presumably sand. Our Bruce held in this.

Thanks for that, Fred. I always find testimonials valuable.

While I have not traveled nearly as far as yourself, my "real world" experience with Bruce anchors matches yours. In fact, in the 10 years (1989-99) that my father and I used a Genuine Bruce (33 pounds) aboard PANOPE (15,000 lbs.), I do not recall the anchor EVER dragging. This included a season in Baja and countless trips around the Salish Sea. We loved that anchor then and I still have a real soft spot for those anchors. I've been collecting them and now have 6 from 5kg to 50 kg.


Here is how I have been able to "reconcile" the seemingly conflicting results between SOME of my tests and my use of Bruce anchors:

1- Seabed type. The Bruce anchor performs very well in many seabeds. In my most recent video (# 138), I test in a new "soft mud" seabed at Sucia Island, the Bruce had better holding AND behavior (No release at all) than the following anchors of similar size: Claw, Spade, Excel, Mantus M2, Vulcan, Quickset, and Delta. This is a completely different result than the two test sites in Port Townsend Bay where the Bruce has a difficult time burying itself and performs worse than most other anchors.

Also, although I have not found a pure sand test bed here in the PNW, I know that the Bruce will do very very well in some of the pure, loose sands of the tropics. Between my own (perfect) use of the anchor in Baja, the Pardey's analysis of the 1982 Cabo anchoring disaster, and countless credible testimonies of Bruce anchors holding through near (and including) hurricane force winds and ending up buried many feet into the substrate.

I fully acknowledge that my early testing of the Bruce anchor exclusively in Port Townsend Bay may have led some people to have a lower opinion of the anchor (overall) than they should. I can recall making general statements like "Bruce Anchor has Low holding power". I Should have been more specific and said something like "Bruce Anchor has Lower holding Power than xxxxxx anchors in xxxxxxx seabed". More recently I have adopted the latter format but there is only so many "disclaimer" type statements that I can make without sounding like I am reading a legal document.

It was the same for the Rollbar Rocna. Countless people who (correctly) know that the Rollbar Rocna has very high performance in many seabeds, viewed my testing of the Rocna in Port Townsend Bay and concluded (incorrectly) that I was a FRAUD and/or INCOMPENTENT.

2- Testing Protocols. My 3.5 knot, 180 degree reversal test is a very extreme test and as a low chance (not zero) of being encountered in the real world. Typically, wind or current shifts happen much more gently and give the anchors time to "shuffle around" and remain engaged with the seabed. Even if your Bruce anchor IS fully releasing every day in La Cruz, the anchor will reset anyway with very high reliability provided the seabed is not of the type that will cling to and foul the anchor.

My "Veer Test" is also unlikely to be duplicated by mother nature unless a tropical storm or hurricane is passing by (not direct hit), thus producing a constant, very high pull on the anchor, while clocking around through many points on the compass.

I liken these protocols to automobile 'brick wall crash dummy tests' - rare in the real world, but I am very glad that someone took the time to make cars safer, just in case.

I am saddened when I learn of genuine people such as yourself who are turned off by my material. While I no longer post my videos to this forum (don't want to shove it down peoples throats), I think you might enjoy my latest, the aforementioned #138. Kinda cool watching a Bruce clobber a bunch of newer types.

Cheers,

Steve

[Fore and Aft]

We have a 44lb Delta on our 32 foot yacht and have never dragged it yet. Its oversized but we purchased it new for a $150 from a boat owner who was told they are rubbish anchors.
Cheers

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

My 35# Delta must have been a freak then. For 26 years it held our 30' 10,000lb (dry) boat through three microbursts, one tornado, and countless big blows. In mud I'd have to power it out.

People denigrate the anchor we have now- Bruce- but it seems to be fine too.

I wonder if it has more to do with technique than anchor.

"Not really good" is relative. And it's not the same as "bad".



I used a Delta successfully for a few years. As I wrote, it's a significant improvement over a CQR. Also based on considerable personal experience.


But I traded my Delta for a Rocna many years ago, and the difference was huge. Much more aggressive, much better setting behavior, needing much less scope for success, being the principle difference, and this was judged based on anchoring in all the same places I had been anchoring with the Delta.


That's all with the same technique, same boat, same anchorages, so the difference was the anchor.


Technique, however, is important. Anchoring many years with a CQR really develops that.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...But I traded my Delta for a Rocna many years ago, and the difference was huge. Much more aggressive, much better setting behavior, needing much less scope for success, being the principle difference, and this was judged based on anchoring in all the same places I had been anchoring with the Delta.

Is your Rocna the same weight as the Delta?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Panope

...I am saddened when I learn of genuine people such as yourself who are turned off by my material. While I no longer post my videos to this forum (don't want to shove it down peoples throats), I think you might enjoy my latest, the aforementioned #138. Kinda cool watching a Bruce clobber a bunch of newer types.

I have never been turned off by your material; I think it is excellent.

I am turned off by people who read or watch reviews, observe that one particular product appears best, and then state that anyone who does not select that product is stupid.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

"Not really good" is relative. And it's not the same as "bad".



I used a Delta successfully for a few years. As I wrote, it's a significant improvement over a CQR. Also based on considerable personal experience.


But I traded my Delta for a Rocna many years ago, and the difference was huge. Much more aggressive, much better setting behavior, needing much less scope for success, being the principle difference, and this was judged based on anchoring in all the same places I had been anchoring with the Delta.


That's all with the same technique, same boat, same anchorages, so the difference was the anchor.


Technique, however, is important. Anchoring many years with a CQR really develops that.

And see, I absolutely agree with you here!