Are the days of satellite GPS navigation numbered??

[coopec43]

These are the Compass Zones

[coopec43]

I find this forum absolutely frustrating - they won't allow edits.


Maybe I have better things to do with my time anyway....


Plastimo Olympic 135 White Compass Binnacle Set

Helpful? Hello, The Plastimo compass that you are looking at is what Plastimo calls world balanced, meaning you can use the same compass in any of the 3 zones, ...

USD 340.99 · ‎In stock

[coopec43]

So you would need 4+ Ritchie compasses to do a circumnavigation?

(I think I'll be looking at a Plastimo 135 world balanced (or similar)!)

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by coopec43

So you would need 4+ Ritchie compasses to do a circumnavigation?
.....

Or have only 1 compass and get the dip adjusted as required. Most don't need to worry when transiting adjacent zones but going from say zone 1 to zone 6 can be problematic if using the compass for accurate navigation. Most only use the compass as secondary or tertiary tools in the modern GPS era

[Jim Cate]

anecdotal evidence:

Back in 1988 we set out from San Francisco in company with a Valiant 40, headed for Mexico and then the South Pacific. We had a 5 inch Danforth binnacle compass, our pals had a similar size Ritchie, both purchased locally. At that time I'd never heard of dip angles and how they affect compasses, All was well until well into the Southern Hemisphere, but somewhere around 20 south our Danforth started hanging up at times and by the time we reached New Zealand it was frozen solid. The Ritchie was still as happy as ever... so we were quite happy to find that on our present boat there was a Ritchie. According to the POs it served well from Oz to Japan to Alaska to the Panama and Caribe and back to Oz where it functions well to this day.

Go figger!

Jim

[coopec43]

Well Jim that's what I was hoping to hear!


I have read it is "possible" the card can touch the base due to the dip (or something like that) so I haven't given up hope at this stage. But expecting a compass set up for Zone 1 to work in zone 6 is probably expecting a bit much .


If all else fails I'll start looking at AUSTRALIAN sellers like Yacht Grot to see if they have secondhand compasses.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Well Jim that's what I was hoping to hear!


I have read it is "possible" the card can touch the base due to the dip (or something like that) so I haven't given up hope at this stage. But expecting a compass set up for Zone 1 to work in zone 6 is probably expecting a bit much .


If all else fails I'll start looking at AUSTRALIAN sellers like Yacht Grot to see if they have secondhand compasses.

Other alternative is to have the compass re-balanced. That's what we did with the Danforth and it was completely successful... but if we had returned north far enough it would have failed once again. The service fee was considerably less than a new compass, but this was in 1990 and in NZ.

You could even attempt to do the balancing yourself if all else fails.

Jim

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Most only use the compass as secondary or tertiary tools in the modern GPS era

OK that's all I would want it for: as a secondary tool. The first time we were out the Skipper/Navigator was telling me "You need to steer a bit more to the left" and I would respond "How's that?" (I thought there had to be a better way)

Jim
As far as re-balancing is concerned I think it costs around USD100 at the factory and then there is postage (USD40 each way?)

A brand new Ritchie B-81 cost $A470 in Australia. I have just sent an email to the Australian seller to see if they can re-balance it for me.

As far as re-balancing it myself maybe I can? (I'll send off an email to Richie Compass Co. to see what a new Zone 5 (or 6) card(?) will cost)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inFf1PW6h6Y

SOME MORE VIDEO CLIPS
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...compass+repair

[coopec43]

I wonder if this is all I need as far as parts are concerned?

https://order.store.turbify.net/yhst...SlxQHQixUCs-~A


Here is a complete Ritchie Manual.

https://www.ritchienavigation.com/wp...vicemanual.pdf

[coopec43]

Apologies if this link has already been uploaded.


Tern AI wants to reduce reliance on GPS with low-cost navigation alternative

The startup has come up with a so-called Independently Derived Positioning System (IDPS) that can recognize the position of a vehicle or person without relying on satellite signal.

https://techcrunch.com/2024/06/12/te...n-alternative/

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by coopec43

...Tern AI wants to reduce reliance on GPS with low-cost navigation alternative...

BINGO! I've just won the Tech Bro version of Buzzword Bingo!

Seriously, a lot of gibberish and jargon there. How many times can you cram the abbreviation "AI" into one article? Right up front, we have this gem:

“We can do GPS’s job without having to call to space and say, ‘Where am I?’” said Moore.

Uh, you're CEO and you don't know that GPS units don't "call to space"?

OK, ignore the marketing hype. Where's the real meat of the product?

Tern AI’s IDPS is powered by an AI model that ingests vehicle and phone sensor data in real time, as well as third-party map data, to provide a consistent and precise position.

Let's parse that. I'll skip the AI part; that's just in there to get the venture capitalists' juices flowing.

What sensor data are they using? Well, the phone knows which cell towers are in range, and their relative strength. You could (and phones already do) triangulate using that. Nothing new there. Not very accurate, and of course useless if the power grid goes down.

But wait. "One of our founding principles was ‘No Signal,’ meaning we are not going to look externally to help us determine where we are." So cell towers are out, right?

Tern AI’s biggest selling point is that it uses AI to parse through sensor data, like speed and motion sensors, that are already available on smartphones and vehicles.

Sounds a lot like dead reckoning to me. Again, not very accurate, but I suppose it could guesstimate how far the next turn is from the last one.

Still, I like the concept of looking for other sources of position data. On the roads, it would be easy to set up something like RFID sensors at key intersections, mile markers, or whatever. You could crowd-source data from other vehicles, like Google Maps does now to identify traffic jams. You could include camera input for augmented reality type location. On the water, if every buoy, light, bridge, rock and reef had an AIS signal, you could navigate pretty well just using that.

But the article says they're not doing those things. And those are all dependent on infrastructure, including cellular data, which is also subject to jamming and physical disruption.

I think I'll wait for the commercial product.

[Statistical]

There is a bit of irony in that most maps are continually updated using gps. Even surveying uses high precision gps. So any system of dead reckoning or terrain recognition system built from hyper accurate gps maps is still using gps just indirectly. Like you I fail to see the point given the ubiquitousness of gps. Even if you could design such a system using phone sensors ... what phone doesn't have a gps receiver always on. It maybe could be useful for indoor directions. Like in an airport giving your realtime step by step directions from one gate to another?

[lestersails]

Article in today's New York Times on the vulnerability of GPS.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...s-threats.html

Apologize it is behind a paywall, but I think you can sign up for free access to a limited number of articles.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

BINGO! I've just won the Tech Bro version of Buzzword Bingo!

Seriously, a lot of gibberish and jargon there. How many times can you cram the abbreviation "AI" into one article? Right up front, we have this gem:

Your comment amuses me! You make a mockery of AI . But I'm not surprised because all new developments have had their doubters.

"By the beginning of the twentieth century, popular opinion regarded air travel as impossible. Contemporary engineers and scientists were also pessimistic about flight. Notable critics included Simon Newcomb, Lord Kelvin, and the chief engineer of the US Navy, George W."

Dear Quote Investigator:" An investor was given a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to purchase stock in Henry Ford’s nascent automobile company. The cautious capitalist asked a prominent banker what he thought, and he received an erroneous prediction:
The horse is here to stay but the automobile is a passing fad"

I am quite certain we will be talking to our computers and listening to the computer's reply in the not too distant future.(Despite your skepticism! )

4 Jan 2024 — Microsoft is adding an artificial intelligence button to its Windows keyboards in a move that marks the company's first significant keyboard change in . https://www.cbsnews.com/news/microso...ard-change-ai/

Time Magazine
How the AI Revolution Will Reshape the World

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Your comment amuses me! You make a mockery of AI . But I'm not surprised because all new developments have had their doubters.

"By the beginning of the twentieth century, popular opinion regarded air travel as impossible. Contemporary engineers and scientists were also pessimistic about flight. Notable critics included Simon Newcomb, Lord Kelvin, and the chief engineer of the US Navy, George W."

Dear Quote Investigator:" An investor was given a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to purchase stock in Henry Ford’s nascent automobile company. The cautious capitalist asked a prominent banker what he thought, and he received an erroneous prediction:
The horse is here to stay but the automobile is a passing fad"

I am quite certain we will be talking to our computers and listening to the computer's reply in the not too distant future.(Despite your skepticism! )

4 Jan 2024 — Microsoft is adding an artificial intelligence button to its Windows keyboards in a move that marks the company's first significant keyboard change in . https://www.cbsnews.com/news/microso...ard-change-ai/

Time Magazine
How the AI Revolution Will Reshape the World

AI is coming, AI is big, AI is amazing. But not EVERYTHING benefits from AI, and not EVERY advertising blurb that claims AI is correct. Let's look at GPS -- let's be a marketer and slip AI into a discussion about a GPS receiver. A GPS plotter is mindnumbingly powerful in the view of a 1994 sailor. But it is not AI, and I'm not sure that there is a place in it for AI (maybe it can do a better job of sussing out a layline for a tack after watching wind shifts, or stuff like that. But simple calculations, like current impact over a run up the Chesapeake, is not the realm of AI).


But, the last quote/title, how AI will reshape the world, is rather humorous in light of global warming. The AI power demand is staggering (and also means it will be a long time before AI devices can operate locally without an internet connection to offload the processing to server farms). According to this CNBC article, Google power has increased 50% due to AI, and MS has seen a 30% increase. Google has said AI has derailed it's program to reach net-zero carbon. https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/02/goog...gy-demand.html