Bolt on Keel Issue

[Pete7]

However, the most important thing you need to do is get rid of standing water in the bilge which has caused this problem or you will be back to square one in no time. There is no reason to have water there, particularly with a deck stepped mast. Find and fix the leaks and the problem goes away, the boat smells nicer and is easier to clean and polish.

Pete

[USA1791]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Yard or DIY ? Impossible for anyone to give you sound advice. What kind of boat, where, what experience level do you have...budget?
This is a big job and the hull looks like it needs interior grinding and reinforcing and who knows what done to the keel.
I’ve built a lot of bolt on keel boats and I hate bolt on keels. I see people get into a project like this and it’s like quick sand. I don’t know your skills or financial situation so I can’t give you any advice.
No one can tell you you can get this job done for x or y dollars or time hours without getting into the job itself. There is no two keel bolt jobs the same.
How much do you have invested in this boat.
What is the condition of the other major items...engine sails mast steering tanks.
How much more are you willing to spend.
If you want an accurate picture from professional boatbuilders, we need more than a snapshot description.
We don’t want to see you throw good money after bad or give up half way through because it like opening a Pandora box.
Captain Mark and The manatee crew.

The boat is a French made 1984 Kirie Feeling 920, we’re over in Alabama on the gulf and as for experience, we have some prior experience doing similar general work. But nothing of this magnitude of doing a whole refit. Been learning as we go from reading on here, and from Don Casey’s This Old Boat lol. For budget, we weren’t expecting something like this but if it’s a safety issue than we’ll have to manage whatever the cost to fix it.

Between the cost of the boat and all the supplies and new equipment we’ve spent for the refit, spent about $18k so far. With the work we plan on doing, we’re expecting to spend $50k total after the refit. And that budget is with us doing all the work ourselves, but something like this, guess we’re going to have to bite the bullet.

Yeah definitely. Everyone on here has been super helpful. I don’t think we’d give up halfway through. We were looking for a long time to find this particular manufacturer since there’s not too many for sale over here in the states. And we plan on keeping this boat forever so getting money’s worth for selling isn’t an issue.

[USA1791]

Originally Posted by Pete7

However, the most important thing you need to do is get rid of standing water in the bilge which has caused this problem or you will be back to square one in no time. There is no reason to have water there, particularly with a deck stepped mast. Find and fix the leaks and the problem goes away, the boat smells nicer and is easier to clean and polish.

Pete

Yes that is something we’re working on right now. The windows were cracked so we replaced one side already and that helped, and since none of the deck hardware was bedded in we removed all that and filled with six10. It seems there might be a leak still coming from the forward cabin somewhere. Washed it down with a hose yesterday and nothing was leaking though so not sure where one could be coming from.

[Manateeman]

You will read a lot of advice from non professionals on the forum. Posters who have never worked in the boatbuilding industry, never built a boat, and most importantly, have no formal certification by any professional organization or regulatory group.
The advice is generally a quick or easy fix or worse, simply ignore the issue.
The volume of posts is simply not a credential.
You can look at the posters personal profile of experience and credentials by clicking on the name and looking under About Me.
The complexity of your repair and the amount of work involved is easily found in numerous posts on bolted keels in videos online.
You will find a numerous cases of light groundings or slight weeping which upon further work, reveal extensive damage and complex and costly repairs. The idea of a quick fix without a thorough examination is in my professional opinion, very, very bad advice. Find a surveyor with credentials or a current or retired USCG passenger vessel inspector or a marine insurance inspector.
Captain Mark

[USA1791]

Originally Posted by Pete7

I wouldn't take the keel off. Instead I would replace the worst two set of nuts and backing plates with new ones and clean up the others. Nor am I convinced the join between the keel and the hull on the outside is a problem. Clean it up and fill with a sealant, then paint it properly.

When you try to take the nuts off I think you will find that they bring the studs out with them. If so just replace them, you don't need stainless steel which has problems, mild steel will do, mine are 32 years old and fine.

The other remaining nuts and backing plates want cleaning up with an angle grinder and brass wire cup brush, then coat with rust killer and a good primer then bilge paint.

You only have one keel so won't cost a lot or take long, I have two to keep an eye on.

Pete

I would love if we could do that and not have to take the keel off. Another guy here at the yard recommended the same thing to us, to take it off one by one and just replace it.

But the chance of it falling off while offshore, even if just a small chance seems too much for us to risk. We wouldn’t be getting much sleep at night I don’t think.

[USA1791]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

You will read a lot of advice from non professionals on the forum. Posters who have never worked in the boatbuilding industry, never built a boat, and most importantly, have no formal certification by any professional organization or regulatory group.
The advice is generally a quick or easy fix or worse, simply ignore the issue.
The volume of posts is simply not a credential.
You can look at the posters personal profile of experience and credentials by clicking on the name and looking under About Me.
The complexity of your repair and the amount of work involved is easily found in numerous posts on bolted keels in videos online.
You will find a numerous cases of light groundings or slight weeping which upon further work, reveal extensive damage and complex and costly repairs. The idea of a quick fix without a thorough examination is in my professional opinion, very, very bad advice. Find a surveyor with credentials or a current or retired USCG passenger vessel inspector or a marine insurance inspector.
Captain Mark

Yes, we planned on after getting a lot of the refit completed to hire a surveyor to check the work we did. I have the book, inspecting an aging sailboat and went through that book and the boat seems pretty solid. The only major structural issue found were these keel bolts (and none of the deck hardware being bedded in if you count that). Deck was solid, engine looks good.

Yeah we don’t want a quick fix, we want something that’s going to last another 40 years.

[goboatingnow]

I think the best recommendation would be galvanised bolts

[wingssail]

Based on the age of the boat and the condition of the keel backing plates and keel bolt nuts, (plus evidence of rust seeping outside) I'd have the keel dropped. The yard is required and probably a professional to manage that job.

We had the boat yard in Sydney drop ours just to allow full inspection.

Otherwise, it is possible to replace the nuts and backing plates (one by one) even in the water, not a major job. We have done that (years subsequent to the keel check exercise in Sydney) when the mild steel backing plates started to deteriorate.

As for keeping the area dry it is very difficult in a boat with a flat bottom (with no sump). With a keel stepped mast it is more difficult although some boats have a "box" around the base of the mast to catch and keep water which comes in.

[Manateeman]

I strongly advise you to have someone qualified look at this before any repair, not after. I sat down this morning with another builder to look over the photos without giving my opinion first. You don’t want to hear this but it was “walk away”. I understand you don’t want to do this. I gave her all the information and how you planned to invest more into the boat. Both of us agreed that just doing the backing plates and nuts is not the way to fix the issue. Both of us came to this conclusion based on the photos but remind you it is impossible to tell how extensive the damage is without lowering the keel.
She also pointed out the bottom of the stainless pipe. If this is a compression post, this might be another item to repair...also it’s not a great place to have the end of a stainless pipe sitting in moisture or water.
No one wants to be the bearer of bad news. It’s clear you want to keep this boat.
Is it possible to repair it...yes. Pull the keel, pull the bolts out of the keel, grind the outside of the hull, the inside, layup some triaxial in epoxy, inside and maybe some additional outside, rebel the keel with larger plates. Get the compression post end up out of the water. We can’t give you an opinion about the keel bolts as we cannot determine their condition in place. No one can. The top threads could be ok and the middle of the bolts severely corroded. Any advice to do otherwise is just unprofessional. If you had just purchased this boat, I would advise you to get an attorney no matter what “where is, as is” sales condition existed. We see case after case of sellers, brokers and unqualified surveyors misrepresenting the true condition of vessels. Case after case of Quick and Easy fix suggestions from non professionals. Can this boat be fixed ? Yes, if properly done. Will that prevent serious similar damage from hitting something at sailing speed or a hard grounding. No. Not at all. I’ve seen a popular cruiser/racer turn into an insurance total wreck just weeks after purchase by clipping a rock.
It’s upsetting for professional boatbuilders to see thousands of these lightly built boats being sold without proper disclosure. Good luck with your project.
Captain Mark

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by USA1791

...
1. Should I go ahead and replace all of the bolt sections, or just do the rusted part?
2. From my understanding, there shouldn’t be a reason to removed the keel. I would just need to get the rusted bolts out and replace?
3. I checked the outside of the keel and have noticed some rust around the keel/hull touching...

You should follow the advice from Manateeman and others: have the keel dropped and the bolts thoroughly checked and the backing plates and other aspects properly repaired where needed.

Where he goes wrong and is giving you biased advice is that you should walk away. Manateeman disagrees with "bolt on keels". Others have different views.

Read what he says again:

Originally Posted by Manateeman

...Can this boat be fixed ? Yes, if properly done. Will that prevent serious similar damage from hitting something at sailing speed or a hard grounding. No. Not at all. I’ve seen a popular cruiser/racer turn into an insurance total wreck just weeks after purchase by clipping a rock.
It’s upsetting for professional boatbuilders to see thousands of these lightly built boats being sold without proper disclosure...

I doubt if he would ever recommend fixing and keeping a boat with a bolt on keel. So before you decide to cancel the project and throw away money already spent, consider that this is only a person's opinion.

[Pitchondesign]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Monel is not recommended if he's screwing them into a cast iron keel.

Titanium might work. Would be strong, corrosion-proof, and I believe non-reactive with iron.

But there's nothing wrong with 316 stainless for this application, or even galvanized steel. Just check often and replace before they get in that condition.

Apparently, titanium and iron together result in a galvanic voltage of about 0.5v, high but not much current. In applications where there is a large mass of iron compared to titanium, the corrosion of the iron is limited. If there is a small mass of iron compared to titanium, the iron can corrode away in months. So, with a large cast iron keel and several keel bolts, there would be "minimal" corrosion of the iron. But " minimal" over many years might be problematic.

I now see why standard steel bolts are recommend.

[Clivevon]

Manateeman is giving you good advice which you cannot really argue with. I'm a non professional complete amateur so you don'rt need to listen to me. However, I think it depends. Depends on your time & money budget & future plans. You have bought an old boat - they all have problems of one sort or another. Do you have to do a major fix on this right now? I would worry that previous bolts or backing plates have been replaced - sounds like a continuing issue. But if it is caused by internal bilge water, you have your solution - fix that. Look up the Arid bilge system. Maybe the water is from an internal leak in your fresh water system - find it & fix it - might just be a new clamp. Pull the rusted bolt - where is the rust? Does it look like it is from internal water or is it a from lower down hull to fin deal leak? Rust on the outside of a cast iron keel does not necessarily mean the seal has failed at the bolts - could just be a small part of the keel itself rusting at the joint. Grind out & reseal the joint with a flexible sealant. Of course for complete peace of mind its a good idea to drop the keel & check out the whole thing so you know for sure. How many keels have dropped off on the model boat you have? Is there an owners association that can tell you? Of course if money not an issue just call the yard & stand back...

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Where he goes wrong and is giving you biased advice is that you should walk away. Manateeman disagrees with "bolt on keels".

That's fine, we all have different opinions, I won't own an old long keeled yacht, the world has move on.

Originally Posted by wingssail

Others have different views.

Indeed, like most European yacht owners.

Originally Posted by wingssail

I doubt if he would ever recommend fixing and keeping a boat with a bolt on keel. So before you decide to cancel the project and throw away money already spent, consider that this is only a person's opinion.

He made a good case, but needs to understand you can't buy a new long or encapsulated keel in Europe were this boat was made. Nobody wants them.

Anyway back to this French yacht. I suspect that when the nuts are turned the studs will come out of the keel rather than the nut unscrew. Studs likely to be quite short, perhaps 6-8 inches. If they prove to be in good condition clean up the top, fit new nuts which will be a metric thread and with new backing plates pop them back in again. Doing one stud at a time means the keel doesn't need to be dropped.

One thing worth mentioning is the limber holes are quite high up in each side of the floors. If the yacht was stationary for any length of time with water in the bilge, firstly it can't drain anywhere and secondly it will cover each keel bolt nicely. Too late to change this, but worth bearing in mind. It won't have been a problem in France because sailing isn't a hobby there, its a religion so yacht will have been sailed permanently on its ear, draining the bilges to the sump.

Pete

[goboatingnow]

Where the hull keel joint has rust and evidence of weeping you need to drop the keel , fair and reseal the mating surfaces.

Do a good job and sleep soundly

[Manateeman]

My opinions come with a bias and I tried to explain that my feelings about bolt on keels was based on my experiences with evaluating post collision boats.
I wanted to be fairly certain about interpreting the photos so I asked another builder to take a look without knowing my conclusions.
The second photo from the top looks to be taken towards the upper forward keel where it joins the hull. We both based this on the poppet in the background.
It’s open to interpretation but looks to us, like the keel to hull joint is...how should I say...in less than perfect condition. The third photo down again shows rust and I would be very surprised if the keel to hull bond was tight.
If the bond between keel and hull is open, it’s the perfect time to fix it.
I suggested further reinforcement to the hull. You are going to grind it anyway to see the condition of the hull so it’s the perfect time to add a little strength for not much work or money. The same with the compression post base.

Reducing the weight of a sail vessel to increase speed is nothing new in boat building. I owned a wonderful Herreshoff. If her keel hit a rock would I expect serious and costly structural damage...yes. It’s the risk you take for speed.
I own two Trinkas, a 10 and a 12. The 10 sits on my aft deck. It was a well built boat, sails and rows nicely. I reinforced the bottom with a layer of triaxial in epoxy because I want strength and longevity. Do I know it will take more effort to row? Certainly. I’ve posted this several times. There is no perfect design, no perfect material for construction or method of construction and no perfect builder.
I’ve been told my opinions are harsh, haughty, and inflexible. My style has received similar condemnation. From my perspective, delivering bad news always ends up with the messenger being shot. Like pulling a tooth and the dentist tells you it won’t hurt much. That’s why I have manatees for crew. I hide behind them. Who could bonk such a beautiful nose.
Happy trail to you and good luck with your repair.
Captain Mark.