Bottom paint application cost!!

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

A few thoughts:
- Some people clearly don't understand what overhead is. 2.5-3.0 times the hourly wage is pretty typical. The lower the hourly wage, the higher the multiplier as stuff like insurance doesn't go down because you are paying less.
- If you can paint a boat in an hour including setup, taping and cleanup, while doing a good job, you are a master and can easily demand a couple hundred an hour and will get it. It took us around 3hrs to do our 34' cat. Yeah, there was a little more taping but not dramatically. We might have cut that in half it we did a sloppy job.
- It sounds great to use independent low overhead contractors but most marinas won't allow it or they will put up road blocks...this isn't as evil as it sounds. The independent contractor didn't put up the money and take the risks involved in buying a boat yard.
- Anytime you farm out simple but dirty nasty work, expect it to be expensive. Either suck it up, go down and do it yourself or pay up.
- A single gallon seems a little light. Ablative paints are best applied thick as they wear down like a bar of soap. Our 34' cat needed closer to 1.5 gal to get a single layer. I would expect similar for your boat of similar size.

PS: a quick hit with the paint while the boat is in the slings has always worked for us. Never saw any indication at the next haulout that the spots we hit last minute didn't hold up.

Precisely!

If marinas were money making profit generators, they wouldn't be going out of business or selling to condo developers.

Of the hourly "shop rate" paid, some has to go to:

1. Employee wages.
2. Employee benefits.
3. Government deductions.
4. Vacation pay and sick pay.
5. Marketing.
6. Property mortgage interest.
7. Property taxes.
8. Utilities.
9. Leasehold improvements.
10. Equipment leases or interest.
11. Vehicle leases or interest.
12. Insurance.
13. Office Supplies.
14. Association membership dues.
15. Business related travel expenses.
16. Continuing education.
17. Maintenance on everything.
18. Depreciation on everything.
19. Accounting fees.
20. Legal fees.
21. Warranty.
22. Shrinkage.
23. Business and Income Taxes.

etc., etc., etc.

...and at the end of a day, hopefully some profit for ALL OF THE RISK taken.

They want to live a decent life too.

If you can't afford to maintain your recreational vessel (a luxury, non-necessity item) please sell it to someone who can, instead of whining about the cost for someone else to do your dirty work.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

As to the cost, as others have suggested -- just do it yourself. It's not rocket science.

I chuckle to myself, every time I walk through a yard, and see DIYers taking unnecessary risks with their health, the health of others, and the environment, cutting years from their life expectancy, spending way more time and money than necessary, creating horrible results, that they'll have to redo way too soon, completely ignorant of what an "expert" bottom job constitutes, because, "it ain't rocket science", believing in their soul, they are "saving" money.

One of my best customers ever, now retired, was the "Director of Engineering for Jet Propulsion Systems" at Boeing (pretty close to "rocket science").

After delegating important responsibilities throughout his career, he wisely chose to entrust every aspect of his vessel (Beneteau Oceanus 46)maintenance, including the "bottom science" (mostly chemistry) to an expert.

When he decided to retire from sailing, he insisted the listing broker include some of the photos I provided of completed work, and "Professionally maintained by Sheen Marine." as the last sentence of the listing.

This boat, on the higher end of the scale, sold very quickly, for an excellent price, in a so-called "buyers" market.

I should add, that I never charged this gentleman any more than I would have charged a janitor, everything else being equal.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I chuckle to myself, every time I walk through a yard, and see DIYers taking unnecessary risks with their health, the health of others, and the environment, cutting years from their life expectancy, spending way more time and money than necessary, creating horrible results, that they'll have to redo way too soon, completely ignorant of what an "expert" bottom job constitutes, because, "it ain't rocket science", believing in their soul, they are "saving" money.

One of my best customers ever, now retired, was the "Director of Engineering for Jet Propulsion Systems" at Boeing (pretty close to "rocket science").

After delegating important responsibilities throughout his career, he wisely chose to entrust every aspect of his vessel (Beneteau Oceanus 46)maintenance, including the "bottom science" (mostly chemistry) to an expert.

When he decided to retire from sailing, he insisted the listing broker include some of the photos I provided of completed work, and "Professionally maintained by Sheen Marine." as the last sentence of the listing.

This boat, on the higher end of the scale, sold very quickly, for an excellent price, in a so-called "buyers" market.

I should add, that I never charged this gentleman any more than I would have charged a janitor, everything else being equal.

A little melodramatic. It makes sense to farm out tasks you are incapable of or not technically able to do.

A fresh coat of ablative bottom paint is labor intensive but pretty straight forward to apply.

The risks vary greatly depending on how often you do it. You are correct that there are significant risks for a yard worker painting dozens of boats each year along with dealing with fiberglass resins, sanding residue and other chemicals on a daily basis...but for your average owner there is very little risk if once every other year, they spend a couple hours painting.

To claim it will take years off their lives is just being dramatic.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I chuckle to myself, every time I walk through a yard, and see DIYers taking unnecessary risks with their health, the health of others, and the environment, cutting years from their life expectancy, spending way more time and money than necessary, creating horrible results, that they'll have to redo way too soon, completely ignorant of what an "expert" bottom job constitutes, because, "it ain't rocket science", believing in their soul, they are "saving" money.

One of my best customers ever, now retired, was the "Director of Engineering for Jet Propulsion Systems" at Boeing (pretty close to "rocket science").

After delegating important responsibilities throughout his career, he wisely chose to entrust every aspect of his vessel (Beneteau Oceanus 46)maintenance, including the "bottom science" (mostly chemistry) to an expert.

When he decided to retire from sailing, he insisted the listing broker include some of the photos I provided of completed work, and "Professionally maintained by Sheen Marine." as the last sentence of the listing.

This boat, on the higher end of the scale, sold very quickly, for an excellent price, in a so-called "buyers" market.

I should add, that I never charged this gentleman any more than I would have charged a janitor, everything else being equal.

Heavens Rod, your post should be in the advertising section.

And it ain't rocket science. Does it require some knowledge? Yes. Does it require a high degree of craftsmanship? Certainly not. Does it require some common sense and respect for one's health and safety? Obviously.

We're not talking about the sanding and washing etc. We're talking about applying paint. Tape the waterline and running gear, suit up, stir the paint, roll it on, brush paint where you can't fit the roller. Clean up. Yes thruhulls and props and shafts require some special treatment, but none of that is rocket science either.

Up and down the east cost of the US you will find DIY yards that veteran, long-term cruisers know about and you'll find them doing excellent work on their boats. Is that every boat owner? No. I certainly know some boat owners that should leave the work to others. But if someone is shocked at the cost of bottom painting and has a modicum of mechanical aptitude it's not a high bar to learn how to do it well.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I chuckle to myself, every time I walk through a yard, and see DIYers taking unnecessary risks with their health, the health of others, and the environment, cutting years from their life expectancy, spending way more time and money than necessary, creating horrible results, that they'll have to redo way too soon, completely ignorant of what an "expert" bottom job constitutes, because, "it ain't rocket science", believing in their soul, they are "saving" money.

One of my best customers ever, now retired, was the "Director of Engineering for Jet Propulsion Systems" at Boeing (pretty close to "rocket science").

After delegating important responsibilities throughout his career, he wisely chose to entrust every aspect of his vessel (Beneteau Oceanus 46)maintenance, including the "bottom science" (mostly chemistry) to an expert.

When he decided to retire from sailing, he insisted the listing broker include some of the photos I provided of completed work, and "Professionally maintained by Sheen Marine." as the last sentence of the listing.

This boat, on the higher end of the scale, sold very quickly, for an excellent price, in a so-called "buyers" market.

I should add, that I never charged this gentleman any more than I would have charged a janitor, everything else being equal.

The more you type here, the more convinced I am that you cater to the mindwashed boutique crowd.

Maybe you really are the pro you say you are......but if you are you will also realize that finding a good pro and affording a good pro is not everyone’s cup of tea. It’s not mine. Right or wrong I enjoy doing my own work.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

The more you type here, the more convinced I am that you cater to the mindwashed boutique crowd.

Maybe you really are the pro you say you are......but if you are you will also realize that finding a good pro and affording a good pro is not everyone’s cup of tea. It’s not mine. Right or wrong I enjoy doing my own work.

Boutique crowd?

Not quite.

Everyone says this kind of stuff "ain't rocket science", and of course I know that it isn't, but if it is so easy and brainless, why when I walk through a yard, do I see so many boats, ready to be put in the water on launch day, with botched bottom jobs?

Many of the jobs we get, are after somebody tried to hire on the cheap, or DIY, and botched it, so it all has to be stripped and redone correctly. Saved money? Nope, costs 'em big time. A premature hired strip job, can easily cost more than 5 years of hired annual maintenance.

For ablative jobs we do in Lake Ontario (fresh water), the bottom is generally good for at least 10 years, with about $100 / year annual hired maintenance, paint included.

And then I see a bunch of DIYers in the yard applying yet another coat of "cheap" bottom paint "to save money". Stripping it every 5 years due to build up and adhesion failure, or worse, leaving the patchy mess with chips picked up and spread by the roller, all over. The sailors likely lose a knot off the top end and are dead in the water in light airs, and the power boaters lose at the fuel pump way more than it would cost to hire out their bottom maintenance.

I s'pose either they don't know how to do it right or they don't care.

To me, if one is going to spend their leisure time to get out the tools and tarps and haz mat suit, they may as well do a good job as a half fast one.

After writing the post yesterday, I walked through the yard I'm working in, prepping boats for launch this weekend.

It ain't rocket science, but apparently the science is beyond the understanding and capability of most DIYers.

I have no issue with anyone doing their own work who enjoys it and endeavours to do a good job.

I do my own work. Always have.

I just chuckle at the ones who claim "it ain't rocket science", and then clearly demonstrate how poorly they understand the science of it.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

A little melodramatic. It makes sense to farm out tasks you are incapable of or not technically able to do.

A fresh coat of ablative bottom paint is labor intensive but pretty straight forward to apply.

The risks vary greatly depending on how often you do it. You are correct that there are significant risks for a yard worker painting dozens of boats each year along with dealing with fiberglass resins, sanding residue and other chemicals on a daily basis...but for your average owner there is very little risk if once every other year, they spend a couple hours painting.

To claim it will take years off their lives is just being dramatic.

One issue is that many DIYers don't use proper PPE.

They are exposed to way more hazardous material than a proper suited pro is.

I've seen people on YouTube painting bottoms in bathing suits, "Showing others how to do it."

There is no "magic" exposure rate that sets off the development of cancer between a pro and a DIYer.

Could be the first, could be the thousandth exposure. Could be a pound of dust, could be a few grains. Could be heavy vapour concentration, could be a whiff.

An Oncologist with many years of very expensive education can't tell anyone how many exposures and the minimum amount it will take, so I'm sure Bubba the DIY boat bottom painter, surely doesn't have a freakin' clue.

Occupational safety agencies have been putting out the word on just how bad this stuff is for you, for years. Few listen (but they complain about the environmentalists and the cost of hiring it out).

It never ceases to amaze me how little people understand the hazards of these chemicals they are breathing in and is covering their skin.

The stuff is designed so that even a brainless organism like a barnacle won't get it on them, and yet I see guys with racoon eyes in yards all the time.

I once had a guy in a yard scoff at my PPE, WHILE he was undergoing skin cancer treatment. He claimed it was due to sun exposure and had absolutely nothing to do with hazardous chemical exposure. Like his abnormal cells told him specifically what caused it. Yeah right.

NIOSH N95 dust mask.

Yup that means that up to 5%, some of the crap that comes out when you blow your nose, is getting onto your lovely pink, highly sensitive, mucous membranes.

Health insurance paid up?

"Melodramatic"?

I prefer "Educated Realist".

Not "rocket science"; chemistry and medical, those are some pretty importance sciences too.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

An Oncologist with many years of very expensive education can't tell anyone how many exposures and the minimum amount it will take, so I'm sure Bubba the DIY boat bottom painter, surely doesn't have a freakin' clue.

So you say a top of the line oncologist can't tell you how many exposures it will take but earlier you implied one DIY bottom job will take years off your life....

So you are saying you have more knowledge about the risks than a top of the line Oncologist...I'll take that for what it's worth.

Yeah, haven't seen anyone at the yards I've been in painting in their swim suits. They might not have the full tyvek suit but they are typically wearing full pants and long sleeve shirts along with gloves. If they do sand, they are typically wearing masks and eye coverings.

So if you translate DIY to running the roller up your buddies bear back when he turns around...you might have a point.

Funny thing is the "pros" I've seen are usually college kids there for the summer making minimum wage and are far less careful about not getting paint on themselves than your average DIY guy. I've yet to see the power wash guy wearing mask and goggles at the haul out...so apparently being a "pro" doesn't mean much.

[witzgall]

Originally Posted by bgallinger

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I had already paid to have the boat hauled out, pressure washed and blocked. I supplied the 1 gallon of paint needed (Seahawk Biocop). The boatyard added 3 hours of labor to sand and feather the existing bottom paint plus some other work I don't need. The quote of $720 to apply one gallon of bottom paint just doesn't add up

I suspect they may be double charging you. When charging for painting by the foot, it usually includes all of the prep work. It could be an honest mistake, but I would ask them pointedly to explain this.

Chris

[witzgall]

I met a cruiser who had a career with the Navy, formulating and testing paints and coatings. He was dying of terminal cancer. Coincidence???

Chris

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

One issue is that many DIYers don't use proper PPE.

They are exposed to way more hazardous material than a proper suited pro is.

I've seen people on YouTube painting bottoms in bathing suits, "Showing others how to do it."

There is no "magic" exposure rate that sets off the development of cancer between a pro and a DIYer.

Could be the first, could be the thousandth exposure. Could be a pound of dust, could be a few grains. Could be heavy vapour concentration, could be a whiff.

An Oncologist with many years of very expensive education can't tell anyone how many exposures and the minimum amount it will take, so I'm sure Bubba the DIY boat bottom painter, surely doesn't have a freakin' clue.

Occupational safety agencies have been putting out the word on just how bad this stuff is for you, for years. Few listen (but they complain about the environmentalists and the cost of hiring it out).

It never ceases to amaze me how little people understand the hazards of these chemicals they are breathing in and is covering their skin.

The stuff is designed so that even a brainless organism like a barnacle won't get it on them, and yet I see guys with racoon eyes in yards all the time.

I once had a guy in a yard scoff at my PPE, WHILE he was undergoing skin cancer treatment. He claimed it was due to sun exposure and had absolutely nothing to do with hazardous chemical exposure. Like his abnormal cells told him specifically what caused it. Yeah right.

NIOSH N95 dust mask.

Yup that means that up to 5%, some of the crap that comes out when you blow your nose, is getting onto your lovely pink, highly sensitive, mucous membranes.

Health insurance paid up?

"Melodramatic"?

I prefer "Educated Realist".

Not "rocket science"; chemistry and medical, those are some pretty importance sciences too.

[hellosailor]

Just for reference, particulate masks are rated for the percent of particles 0.3 microns or larger in size that they stop. So an N95 stops non-petroleum particles 95% of the time, if the are larger than 0.3 microns in size. Which is almost getting down to virus size--way smaller than what you make with sandpaper, AFAIK. For a little more, you can buy the N99 filters that are right next to them, or the N100 filters with 100% filtering.

Now if the paints emit fumes of some concern, you move to a respirator. But I've never smelled heavy fumes coming off bottom paint. I suspect simple diesel exhaust or walking on a city street next to heavy traffic is a higher risk.

And then there's that fellow who was killed in the UK when his new-to-him boat fell off the cradle. Apparently he didn't realize that basilisks sometimes lurk under cradles, not just ladders, and it is very dangerous to get near them.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

So you say a top of the line oncologist can't tell you how many exposures it will take

Yup.

but earlier you implied one DIY bottom job will take years off your life....

Nope. Those are your words not mine.

Exposure to hazardous materials is hazardous to one's health.

So you are saying you have more knowledge about the risks than a top of the line Oncologist...

Nope, those are your words not mine.

I don't know anywhere near what an oncologist knows.

Yeah, haven't seen anyone at the yards I've been in painting in their swim suits.

Me neither, just on YouTube as I said. I do see lots of folks with inadequate PPE. Just the other day, a fella was teaching his 20 something maybe kid how to do a bottom. Sanding, no mask, hacking and coughing the whole time. IDIOT!

They might not have the full tyvek suit but they are typically wearing full pants and long sleeve shirts along with gloves. If they do sand, they are typically wearing masks and eye coverings.

Sometimes so, sometimes not. If you can wipe your face on a white towel, and it leaves sanded paint fines, you have been needlessly exposed to hazardous materials.

Funny thing is the "pros" I've seen are usually college kids there for the summer making minimum wage and are far less careful about not getting paint on themselves than your average DIY guy.

Big difference between a "pro", (one who is highly skilled and continuously endeavours to improve their craft), and a "schmo", one who doesn't have a clue what they are doing but accepts pay for doing it anyway.

If you ever see a "pro" bottom, you'll know it, people walk by and exclaim, "oooo, ahhhhh, nice bottom, damn that looks fast".

[Kenomac]

As an avid do it myselfer, I find myself in almost complete agreement with good old ramblinrod on this issue. It ain’t rocket science, but I’ve seen way too many DIYers doing some real dumbass stuff. One guy fell from the rigging last season in a neighboring marina and killed himself. I can’t tell you how many DIYer’s I’ve seen absolutely covered with bottom paint dust while using cheapo Chinese store dust masks which do nothing. Honestly having worked professionally as a house painter for several years, I’d never even consider stripping or sanding the bottom of a boat myself even with a respirator.... that’s nasty stuff that WILL take years off your life just as Rod stated without the proper protection.

[Kenomac]

Here’s another story: I heard of this DIY fool who got his hands on some of the bottom paint used by the US Navy to do his boat. Got the stuff all over himself without any of the proper protection, placed the boat in the water and within a couple of days, watched as all the growth on the neighboring dock finger bottoms dropped off. Sure his bottom job lasted longer than if it had been done by a pro, but did he really save money? The guy was dead from cancer within a few years.

[Jim Cate]

I heard of this DIY fool ....... The guy was dead from cancer within a few years.

There ya go, Ken... conclusive clinical PROOF that if ya DIY bottom paint it will kill ya dead.

Apocryphal stories are such a waste of our time... I'd like to see some data about the toxicity of spent bottom paint (if it was still good and toxic, why sand it off?), both as an inhaled dust and simple external contamination. Possibly not such an extreme hazard after all, who knows? Conjecture by even skilled applicators isn't terribly compelling and an Industrial Hygienist's opinion would be welcome.


Jim