Bottom paint application cost!!

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

There ya go, Ken... conclusive clinical PROOF that if ya DIY bottom paint it will kill ya dead.

Apocryphal stories are such a waste of our time... I'd like to see some data about the toxicity of spent bottom paint (if it was still good and toxic, why sand it off?), both as an inhaled dust and simple external contamination. Possibly not such an extreme hazard after all, who knows? Conjecture by even skilled applicators isn't terribly compelling and an Industrial Hygienist's opinion would be welcome.


Jim

What's wrong with just looking up the MSDS?

They are called "Hazardous Materials" for a reason.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Here’s another story: I heard of this DIY fool who got his hands on some of the bottom paint used by the US Navy to do his boat. Got the stuff all over himself without any of the proper protection, placed the boat in the water and within a couple of days, watched as all the growth on the neighboring dock finger bottoms dropped off. Sure his bottom job lasted longer than if it had been done by a pro, but did he really save money? The guy was dead from cancer within a few years.

Ken, I am curious (yeah I know curiosity can be a dangerous thing) is this DIY fool someone that you nursed and therefore knew the background or someone that your brothers wife's uncle's friend who knew a guy who knew a guy who told this tale to someone,etc etc.
Just askin, honest.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

What's wrong with just looking up the MSDS?

They are called "Hazardous Materials" for a reason.

Ah another example of the fear and greed justification.
If you paint your boat yourself you are gunna DIE, only a marine professional understands the "science"of bottom painting.

Right up there with the concept that if you use nylock nuts on your battery posts your boat is gunna BURN,baby BURN.
Only a marine professional can save you.
Of course at the appropriate remuneration.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

What's wrong with just looking up the MSDS?

They are called "Hazardous Materials" for a reason.

The MSDS lists some or all of the constituents of new, unapplied paint, not old paint that has had its toxic contents leaching out for a year or more and its volatiles long since gone. That's why I'd like to see data for the real world of bottom preparation: removing old dead antifouling.

If, along with your many certifications already mentioned you are a certified Industrial Hygienist, then I'll accept your opinion on such matters. If you are not, then you are just another opinionated bozo spouting off on the CF.

Taking reasonable precautions when generating any aerosols is always a good idea. But unreasonable fear mongering does no one much good

Jim

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I chuckle to myself, every time I walk through a yard, and see DIYers taking unnecessary risks with their health, the health of others, and the environment, cutting years from their life expectancy, spending way more time and money than necessary, creating horrible results, that they'll have to redo way too soon, completely ignorant of what an "expert" bottom job constitutes, because, "it ain't rocket science", believing in their soul, they are "saving" money.

One of my best customers ever, now retired, was the "Director of Engineering for Jet Propulsion Systems" at Boeing (pretty close to "rocket science").

After delegating important responsibilities throughout his career, he wisely chose to entrust every aspect of his vessel (Beneteau Oceanus 46)maintenance, including the "bottom science" (mostly chemistry) to an expert.

When he decided to retire from sailing, he insisted the listing broker include some of the photos I provided of completed work, and "Professionally maintained by Sheen Marine." as the last sentence of the listing.

This boat, on the higher end of the scale, sold very quickly, for an excellent price, in a so-called "buyers" market.

I should add, that I never charged this gentleman any more than I would have charged a janitor, everything else being equal.

A good advertisement! But tell us, Rod -- did the great price this guy got for his boat, equal the cumulative amount he paid you over the years?

Ha ha.

But in any case, I am certainly a big fan of the Division of Labor -- people specialize and build up specialized skills and then exchange their labor with each other. Everyone wins, because no one can do everything well. Taxes and regulation are a wedge which reduces the benefit of this, but you can make up for that by having a profession which pays more than the skilled trades which work on your car, house, boat or whatever.

Another really important skill, little discussed on here, is that of selecting, hiring, and supervising the pros you use. That's the highest value one of them all. The guy who just let Rod do everything was very clever -- he found one guy who was competent and trustworthy and delegated the overall management to him. All he had to do was write the checks.

I don't do any single bit of work on any of my land dwellings or cars. I concentrate on finding and properly managing the right pros to do it (however I recently got a plumbing bill at $150 per hour for one of my rental houses which made me question this for a moment ).

But I don't do that on my boat -- why?

There's another reason to do it yourself which has not been mentioned here. If the heating system on your house breaks, you can call in a pro who will be on scene within hours if necessary. But if something breaks in a strange port in a foreign country, or God forbid at sea, you can't just call in a pro. So for anyone who sails out of his own bay for more than a weekend, there is a very great benefit to being familiar with all of your systems and how to repair them, and there is a very great benefit to having decent mechanical and electrical skills, and keeping those skills up by regular use. "Decent" doesn't have to mean equal to a pro who does it every day. It means being able to finish the job with reasonable quality, even if it takes two or three times longer than it would take a pro. And that is the main reason why I do most of my own work on my boat. You really shouldn't go to sea in a boat you haven't crawled a mile in the bilges of, in my opinion, find every sea cock of in the dark and underwater, know the engine better than the anatomy of your significant other, etc. etc..

One job I've never done before this year is work on the bottom of the boat. I always use a pro for that, because doing a bottom job is not something I will ever need to do in a strange port or at sea. I did it this year only because I only had a week of the time of my pro (he is popular and booked up a year in advance), and I had other things for him which were more important. And it really isn't rocket science -- especially if you've ever painted anything. You have to wear a mask and goggles and protective coveralls, and gloves, and you can't slop it around. Like with all painting you have to prep the surface properly. It took us roughly twice as long as my pro, and it took an extra can of uber-expensive Micron 77 (which by itself cost as much as I would have paid my guy to do the application), but the results were fine. My pro supervised and loaned us tools while he was working on our rudder. Rod, you go too far saying we will all die if we ever try to do any of our own work. Come on! You make some very good arguments which are weakened by this kind of hyperbole.


All this is also the reason why I am longing to have a full time professional crewman again, as I had the first couple of years with this boat. First on the list of required skills for this position will be excellent mechanical and electrical skills. I will give him the entire job of organizing the maintenance program for the boat -- that will be pure bliss.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

What's wrong with just looking up the MSDS?

They are called "Hazardous Materials" for a reason.

Actually they put out MSDS on just about everything.

Johnson's Baby Shampoo has an MSDS...you know. The one that says it won't even cause tears if you get it in your eyes.

Not suggesting you shouldn't be careful with bottom paint but just having an MSDS doesn't mean squat.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I chuckle to myself, every time I walk through a yard, and see DIYers taking unnecessary risks with their health, the health of others, and the environment, cutting years from their life expectancy, spending way more time and money than necessary, creating horrible results, that they'll have to redo way too soon, completely ignorant of what an "expert" bottom job constitutes, because, "it ain't rocket science", believing in their soul, they are "saving" money.

Sure looks like you are claiming better knowledge than the oncologist when you said an oncologist can't tell you the actual impact of exposure.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Me neither, just on YouTube as I said. I do see lots of folks with inadequate PPE. Just the other day, a fella was teaching his 20 something maybe kid how to do a bottom. Sanding, no mask, hacking and coughing the whole time. IDIOT!

Sometimes so, sometimes not. If you can wipe your face on a white towel, and it leaves sanded paint fines, you have been needlessly exposed to hazardous materials.

Big difference between a "pro", (one who is highly skilled and continuously endeavours to improve their craft), and a "schmo", one who doesn't have a clue what they are doing but accepts pay for doing it anyway.

If you ever see a "pro" bottom, you'll know it, people walk by and exclaim, "oooo, ahhhhh, nice bottom, damn that looks fast".

Because if it's on youtube that must be the standard.

Never wiped my face after painting and had sanding fines on the towel. Of course while I don't want to be exposed to them, we need to assess the actual risk involved. The fear mongering statements that it will take years off your life is just that fear mongering by someone who profits from stopping people from doing DIY work.

Realistically, not many "pros" by your definition out there. The vast majority of "pro" bottom paint jobs is low man at the yard get's stuck with the nasty job.

Apparently, I can do a "pro" bottom job as I have received complements after it was painted...I've even received compliments from the "pros" at the marina.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I have no issue with anyone doing their own work who enjoys it and endeavours to do a good job.

I think we could have left it at that.

People come here for advice. $750 just for the application of one coat of paint itself on an already prepped 35' boat is expensive. That's charging for a full day, 7-8 hours of work at most yards. If you think that's an awesome price then you're ripping your customers off, period. Every quality hard I've been to is happy to charge labor by the hour for all the work they do and they still make money, some of them quite handsomely.

We're not talking about wet sanding Baltoplate or Black Widow. We're talking about a single gallon of ablative cruiser paint.

As for us saying "it's not rocket science", you seem to think that's equivalent to us saying "you don't need to learn anything to do it." Obviously there is stuff to learn in terms of materials, process, and safety. But it's not information that is difficult to acquire and the level of "craftsmanship" with respect to physical experience is virtually non-existent. Are there people who should not do it because they don't have the mechanical or physical aptitude? Yes. Does that mean no one should attempt it except a professional? Absolutely not.

As for all the subsequent bickering about how safe it is, well it is a hazardous material obviously but so are half of household chemicals. It's up to people to learn to handle materials safely and there is plenty of information about how to do that with bottom paint. No one here suggested that all anyone has to do is watch a couple of YouTube videos.

I agree with Jim. Anecdotal stories do nothing but indicate that the person passing them on has a limited grasp of the scientific process.

[thinwater]

Let's see. This has been a fun thread.

* Waving the bloody shirt (you'll get the cancer, man.)
* Straw man (regarding safety, we are not all stupid. Regarding prep and application, some of us can read.)
* Over simplification of costs (yes, you have to pay your painter while it rains.)
* Time estimates (Yes, I used to pain my 34' catamaran in less than an hour. Prep took several hours. In a full day, I would prep, possibly two coats, and work on several other projects in the middle. But I have skills, am organized from years of practice, and take few breaks.)

Are the yard rates fair? If they were not, capitalism says some would be cheaper. Generally, they are fair. Can you do a good job cheaply? Of course, but you should read-up first. It's not just slap-it-on; there are neat and safe work practices, prep, and being organized.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Sure looks like you are claiming better knowledge than the oncologist when you said an oncologist can't tell you the actual impact of exposure.

Nope. I didn’t say that.

I indicated that an Oncologist can’t tell you if it will be the first or 1000th exposure, nor what concentration will induce or exacerbate the development of cancer. Neither can I. So rather than play Russian Roulette with ones health, I recommend reading the MSDS, and following the recommendations for handling, storage, PPE, and first aid / medical treatment.

One doesn’t need an “Industtial Hygienist” to tell them that this is the absolute minimum one should do, (because manufacturers don’t tend willingly paint their products in unfavourable light).

But you know what? I’m done with those who disregard scientific facts because it doesn’t support their false beliefs. Bathe in the crap, smoke and inhale, I really don’t care if you’re removed the gene pool.

I do care about the uninformed following your recommendations, hence my posts, and the reason I hand out dust masks and disposable gloves for free, when I walk through a yard and see neophytes not using them.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Nope. I didn’t say that.

I indicated that an Oncologist can’t tell you if it will be the first or 1000th exposure, nor what concentration will induce or exacerbate the development of cancer. Neither can I. So rather than play Russian Roulette with ones health, I recommend reading the MSDS, and following the recommendations for handling, storage, PPE, and first aid / medical treatment.

One doesn’t need an “Industtial Hygienist” to tell them that this is the absolute minimum one should do, (because manufacturers don’t tend willingly paint their products in unfavourable light).

But you know what? I’m done with those who disregard scientific facts because it doesn’t support their false beliefs. Bathe in the crap, smoke and inhale, I really don’t care if you’re removed the gene pool.

I do care about the uninformed following your recommendations, hence my posts, and the reason I hand out dust masks and disposable gloves for free, when I walk through a yard and see neophytes not using them.

Who's disregarding scientific facts? You said doing a DIY bottom job would take years off your life. I even gave the quote where you said it.

I (and no one else on the thread) never suggested there wouldn't be an impact but if you want to talk average life span lost, you imply it will take years off when from a scientific point of view, it could be anywhere from no impact (theoretically it could even extend your life but reasonably we can accept that that is unlikely) to you will die the second you crack the can of paint open (equally unlikely).

So how exactly did you come up the scientific assertion that it will take years off your life? Educate us.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Who's disregarding scientific facts? You said doing a DIY bottom job would take years off your life. I even gave the quote where you said it.

I (and no one else on the thread) never suggested there wouldn't be an impact but if you want to talk average life span lost, you imply it will take years off when from a scientific point of view, it could be anywhere from no impact (theoretically it could even extend your life but reasonably we can accept that that is unlikely) to you will die the second you crack the can of paint open (equally unlikely).

So how exactly did you come up the scientific assertion that it will take years off your life? Educate us.

I never said what you claimed I did. If you don’t ish to quote me, please do so. If you can’t paraphrase any more accurately than you have been, please stop, you apparently do not have an adequate command nor comprehension of English. In the he end you are only arguing with yourself, if you have to move to misrepresent someone’s position to make an argument against it.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Who's disregarding scientific facts? You said doing a DIY bottom job would take years off your life. I even gave the quote where you said it.

I (and no one else on the thread) never suggested there wouldn't be an impact but if you want to talk average life span lost, you imply it will take years off when from a scientific point of view, it could be anywhere from no impact (theoretically it could even extend your life but reasonably we can accept that that is unlikely) to you will die the second you crack the can of paint open (equally unlikely).

So how exactly did you come up the scientific assertion that it will take years off your life? Educate us.

Anyone with a minimum amount of sense would realize exposure to toxins will shorten ones life. How much? I guess that depends on the individual and the amount of exposure. Worse than shortening, might be the way one goes.
I'd opt. for a silent heart attack, in the middle of the night, not a prolonged fight with cancer.

[hellosailor]

My cardiologist agreed totally with my parole officer, who said "No matter how toxic that stuff is, you're going to live longer if you just do the job yourself, so you don't wind up killing another one of those underpaid morons in the yard when they botch another job."

And besides, the ground at the yard is usually really hard packed, there's just no place handy to put the bodies. My PO usually is right about these things, if you think them through ahead of time.