bulge & crack on lead keel

[hiphip]

Hi, we have a C&C 35 MKIII that we purchased last year, we knew this boat had a keel issue (purchase price was adjusted accordingly) but we're not sure of what caused it or how to fix it. Any thoughts, tips, suggestions would be appreciated.

About half way down the keel there is bulge that is about 3" around, in the middle of this bulge there is a crack in the lead (see photo) Our Keel is lead with bottom paint, no fiberglass on the lead.

Any idea what caused this blister? Any ideas on how to fix the crack in the lead? Do we even need to fix this?

[Empty Pockets]

Not familiar with the C&C, but any possibility you have steel keel bolts extending down that far that are corroding and swelling? Not sure what else could swell and crack a lead keel from the inside. Might be easy enough to drill a small hole in the crack and see what you hit besides lead?

[hellosailor]

To me, it looks like that is white filler of some kind, and that a much larger area around it is showing as a problem. Perhaps a much larger damage that was filled incorrectly. The only way to be certain would be to grind out all the filler and make sure you're looking at the lead keel itself. And since lead doesn't rust...all the rust weepage means something inside is suspect, perhaps a keel bolt or perhaps some odd previous repair to one was done. I think you'll have to go exploring.
I can't really see how an appropriate price adjustment was made, without knowing what the extent of the keel issue is.
There's no other sign of keel damage? Or hull damage from the keel being pushed up in a grounding? Just the odd bulge?

[billknny]

If this is the "keel issue" that got you a discount on the price, and you "don't know what caused it or how to fix it," how did you arrive at a value to put on it? Was a purchase survey done? If so, did the surveyor have a comment on this?

Lead doesn't easily crack, it is very malleable. I have seen keels that were hit hard enough to rip off a boat that didn't have significant cracks. For lead to bulge and crack like this--from the inside--something very ugly is happening. With almost no information to go on, EmptyPockets' suggestion of keel bolt corrosion would also be my best guess. Few other things could generate this kind of outward pressure on the keel. But... if that was the case I would expect the crack to be weeping rust, or rusty water and I don't see evidence of that in the picture.

Just to be clear, IF a corroding keel boat is the cause, then this crack almost certainly goes through the keel into the corrosion pocket around the keel bolt. The only thing keeping the water on the outside of the boat would then be the rust around the keel bolt. That should scare you...

Does this boat have a stub? or is the keel bolted directly to the bottom of the hull? What is the distance between the top of the lead part of the keel and the crack? Are they any visible issues around the joint at the top of the lead keel? How do the keel bolts look from the inside? Have the nuts on the keel bolts been torqued recently? Is there any evidence of repairs inside or out? A picture of the whole keel to put things in perspective would be helpful, as would be the keel boats in the bilge.

[hiphip]

Just to be clear , we took 10k off of the fair market value of the boat in anticipation of a possible keel removal/repair if it became necessary, the boat is otherwise in excellent shape.

We did have a survey, he was unsure of the cause and we also had a copy of a 5 year old survey, the same bulge was there 5 years ago.

The boat has stainless steel keel bolts, there is no rust. After posting this I started researching the web I believe water has infiltrated down a keel bolt and it froze over the wintertime which caused this bulge. I'm going to coat the crack with some epoxy, sail it, and forget about it for the season.

Next year we will take it to a shop equipped to properly repair this.

[roverhi]

Can't tell if the picture is showing lead or a filler on top of the lead. Lead keel castings have pretty rough surfaces so it is not uncommon for the builder to fair the keel with putty. Would bet that the bubble and crack are problems with 'Bondo' or whatever was used as filler. If that's the case, grind down to bright metal, fill with thickened epoxy and grind fair. Micro balloons or other non structural filler will be the easiest to fair in.

If it is indeed a crack in the might grind a 'V' into the crack and fill. Doubt that that would be the case though.

[Don C L]

If it really is a blister, then a rusting keel bolt is all I can imagine too. I've never seen this repair but I imagine it will involve cutting into the lead to inspect the keel boat and clean it and treat it with something like Corroseal and then sealing it back up with a resin compound. I'll be curious to see what it turns out to be and the remedy.

edit: oops missed your last post. Fresh water going down the keel bolt and freezing? I hadn't heard of that. I have seen stainless steel rust though when trapped.

[hellosailor]

Ice expansion, hmmm. That's certainly an idea, although it reminds me of the Serlock Holmes quote about when you've eliminated everything but one, no matter how improbable, that might just be it. You might ask the folks at Mars Metals (they made a lot of these keels) if they've ever heard of that, considering the strength of the keel versus the expansion power, and that the damage is only one sided.

BTW, lead keels actually can be refilled with lead not epoxy. Up into the 70's if one had a blemish on one's Rolls Royce, the authorized repair shops actually still did hot lead fills, not plastic, to repair the bodywork. Even on a vertical surface like the keel, it is still quite possible--if you can find anyone who will still work with lead.

[Allied39]

In the amount of time you have spent asking folks what the problem is ......which is unlikely to prove accurate........you could simply get into it with an old wood chisel and a hammer and knock out whats there and look......with your eyes and see what the problem is.

I can't imagine how much easier it could be.

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by Allied39

In the amount of time you have spent asking folks what the problem is ......which is unlikely to prove accurate........you could simply get into it with an old wood chisel and a hammer and knock out whats there and look......with your eyes and see what the problem is.

I can't imagine how much easier it could be.

I had just out typed out basically the same thing, went up to look at the picture again and saw that you beat me to it. Certainly seems the most efficient use of time...it's not like that'll make anything 'worse'.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, hiphip.
Congratulations on your new (2u) boat.

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by hiphip

The boat has stainless steel keel bolts, there is no rust.

Stainless rusts also. Especially if no oxygen can reach it. Water and freezing can not crack lead. As written before, lead is very malleable. Are you sure the crack is in the lead and not some kind of filler?

I think your plan is good. Forget about it for a while and enjoy the boat. This does not look in any way serious.

[GordMay]

The keel is externally fastened with stainless fasteners, but might have mild steel washers.

[CAR54]

My J 28 had the exact looking damage on the keel when I bought the boat six years ago, there was no rust so I filled it with epoxy.

Last year I painted the mast and found multiple pin pricks on a small spot on the mast, which indicated to me a lighting strike creating entrance holes, the grounding for the mast did its job and routed the strike to the keel which created the exit hole from the strike on the side of the keel.

Having a long career in the utility industry and seeing many things damaged by lighting gave me the back ground to determine the damage source.

Hope this helps.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by CAR54

My J 28 had the exact looking damage on the keel when I bought the boat six years ago, there was no rust so I filled it with epoxy.

Last year I painted the mast and found multiple pin pricks on a small spot on the mast, which indicated to me a lighting strike creating entrance holes, the grounding for the mast did its job and routed the strike to the keel which created the exit hole from the strike on the side of the keel.

Having a long career in the utility industry and seeing many things damaged by lighting gave me the back ground to determine the damage source.

Hope this helps.

Wow! I wouldn’t have thought of that! Learn something new here everyday, thanks for that!