Cabin Sole Replacement

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Joli

To make your own panels Nick you should have access to a vaccuum bag table. The product will be much flatter and have no voids. Good luck.

That looks very nice Joli! Just PM me your address and I'll use yours! ;-)) Worth a trip to Ohio, especially since I've not been there yet.

ciao!
Nick.

[bob kingsland]

Nick, I've been an admirer of both your choice of boat, and your articulate and well thought out systems modifications to that boat, for quite some time, but on this one I must respectfully agree with what Sabray is saying. Sure, Brunyzeel is good stuff, but if you epoxy teak to one side of it and don't almost immediately coat the down side of the ply, and put one sealer coat on the teak and holly, somewhere on the order of at least 50% of your panels will move out of flat, and some of that 50% will move quite a lot. Some will cup up, some down, and some will twist, but move they will. It doesn't have so much to do with the quality of the plywood as it does the orientation of the fibres and layers, the grain of the teak, and probably the state of the moon. You can't predict it, but you can count on it.

I just looked in on a fiend's project last week end... beautiful custom design Deter Empacher 56' yawl, no expense spared, everything done to the best abilities of every one involved. They had pre built all the floor panels, 1/2" okoume and 1/4" teak and holly, finish sanded on a big time saver belt... and all vertical grain teak. They rejected any piece more than 12 degrees off the vertcal. The boat is being built in a ware house locally, and the owner took each panel home to his basement as they were done to put a coat of epoxy on the bottom and sealer on the top immediately, like that night. Those panels stayed nice and flat. But four of the smaller ones got lost in the shuffle and buried in the building shed for a couple of weeks before some body remembered them. They'd all gone way out of flat, and they were putting weights on them to try and bring them back, and talking about maybe having to redo them if they couldn't bring them back.

I'm just completeing a laid teak and holly sole on my own 50' boat... in fact I have to get off this damn computer and epoxy the last 2 small panels tonight. I've been taking pictures, and since there seems to be a little interest in the subject, I hope to write up something this week end on how I did it, and why I made the choices I made. One way around the problem would be to squegee on a coat of epoxy on both sides ofthe panel before you glued the teak to it... hit it with a DA with 120 and they'll stay pretty stable. Then you just have to get a coat of sealer on the top of the teak as each one is done. But if you epoxy one side of the teak toone side of the plywood and leave them alone for a while, they'll move. Or you can lay them up, let that go off, finish sand the top the next day, flip them over, put a coat of epoxy on, flip them back upright on a bed of nails, and seal the top, all in 2 days per panel.

But if 2 of the 4 surfaces are open for any length of time, and 2 are closed, the differential moisture absorbtion will jump out and bite you almost every time.

Hope this helps some... I have to go mix epoxy.

Best, Bob S/V Restless

[s/v Jedi]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your comments. You might have missed my post #6 in this thread where I wrote I plan to seal the bottom with epoxy. I wonder what kind of sealer you use for the teak?

My standard method of working with plywood is always first heat (heat-gun) and epoxy-coat everything. I might combine it with a layer of glass but I epoxy everything incl. the edges. This also allows me to do wet sanding on it.

About the teak: do you de-grease it with acetone before epoxying it in place?

thanks,
Nick.

[sabray]

one more detail I really like.Im making some for my boat. A small removable grate inset into the sole, below that resting on a some cleats a 9"x9" removable Tuperware bowl with a wood knob. These work Grate for catching dirt sand etc... Im putting 2 in as it will also serve for quick access to some thru hulls. Otherwise I need to lift the whole panel to get to them in 1 case I also have to remove the companionway ladder.

[s/v Jedi]

Oh my I almost don't dare to write how we deal with dirt... y'all will find out I'm a freak ;-) This is what we use on Jedi: iRobot: Robot® Roomba® Vacuum Cleaning Robot cleans routinely so you don't have to. Shop the iRobot Store for Roomba Vacuum Cleaning Robots.

Yes, a robot and I wouldn't dare to keep the dirt from him!

ciao!
Nick.

[Stillraining]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Oh my I almost don't dare to write how we deal with dirt... y'all will find out I'm a freak ;-) This is what we use on Jedi: iRobot: Robot® Roomba® Vacuum Cleaning Robot cleans routinely so you don't have to. Shop the iRobot Store for Roomba Vacuum Cleaning Robots.

Yes, a robot and I wouldn't dare to keep the dirt from him!

ciao!
Nick.

Naw! I bet thats one of your start-ups Nick...

[Maren]

Originally Posted by oceansong1

Hi folks, does anyone have experience w/ laminates to replace veneer from marine plywood? Presently working on replacing teak and holly cabin sole which is essentially teak and holly veneer over marine plywood. I also need to replace some portions of the veneer from cabinets; probably mohogany veneer.

I agree with Nick and would vacuum bag the new veneer directly over the old unless the section isn't really fair. By the way, have you tried Yukon Lumber or considered using teak and rubber?

[s/v Jedi]

Hmmm... I'm Nick and can tell you that Nick wouldn't use veneer for the cabin sole! ;-)

cheers,
Nick.

[bob kingsland]

Hi Nick: yes, I think I did see your post number 6 but I guess I wasn't clear on when in the process you were planning on coating both sides. What works well is to cut the panel to shape, coat 1 side, and then immediately flip it over while wet onto a couple of 1x3's with nails sticking out of them and coat the other side, and the edges. Sure the nails mark it up a little, but now both surfaces are effectively sealed at the same time, inluding the edges, and the piece stays stable. After it goes off, sand as usual and proceed. Likewise, whatever you're putting on top should have a coat of sealer on it as soon as practical after finishing it. In the case of a sole, if you're using varnish, then a first coat of whatever you're using thinned 30% or more will do it. At this stage, everything should stay pretty flat, and you can lay the teak on the next one, sand it, seal it , and keep going.

I've heard you mention heating the ply with a heat gun prior to the first coat, to draw the epoxy into the wood, and I would think this is probably not a bad idea if you're so inclined but I've never felt the necessity as most marine ply seems to drink up the epoxy anyway. My whole interior is teak held together with epoxy... teak ply and teak solid...there are no screws or bungs visible anywhere... and I've never had a glue failure (at least not yet). On interior stuff, I don't usually bother wiping with acetone, unless maybe if it's something particularly structural and if the particular piece of wood seems more oily than most. On exterior teak I did it, but there's not nearly so much of it. The other factor to that is that most of what I epoxy is something that I machined quite recently.

The question of what to coat a sole with is one with many answers. A lot of people seemed to like Ultimate Sole, which appeared to be a modified catalyzed gym floor finish, but the guy who was developing it stopped marketing it last fall. Catalyzed gym floor finishes are tempting, because of their non skid properties and because they don't require nearly as many coats as varnish. There are various pros and semi pros on the wooden boat forum who recommend them. But in a conversation I had the other day with the service manager at a large New England yard, he said he didn't like them because after a couple of years when the floor was a little dinged and they went to repair them, it was impossible to color match, and the small spot repairs would always and forever age and color differently from the rest of the sole, which greatly upset owners who were paying boat yard rates to have their soles redone. So at that yard they just use varnish... which one is owner's choice.

Best, Bob S/V Restless

[skipmac]

Plan on redoing my cabin sole also but have a different situation. Current sole is teak and holly veneer on marine ply. The veneer is original and pretty well beat up but the underlying ply looks fine. If the ply looks good after closer inspection it would seem pointless to pull it out, plus the interior furniture and the floors are pretty much built into a unit and would have to take the whole boat apart to replace the plywood floors. So the only logical option for me would be to put 1/4" teak and holly on top of the existing ply.

Having done wood floors in a house I was aware of the problems from expansion/contraction with changing temp and humidity but did not realize wood on wood presented the same problem. Does make sense since ply should be dimensionally stable due the cross grain structure and the teak not.

Am I at risk of warping the boat into a pretzel if I epoxy teak to the old floors? If it screws up it will be a lot more serious that redoing a warped panel on the work bench in the shop so I really have to get it right the first time.

Not practical to go back and completely epoxy seal all sides of the existing ply so have to deal with this in some other way. If I store the teak in the boat until the moisture content of the teak matches the existing floor and then glue it down would that work? Should I not use epoxy and go with a more flexible adhesive? So, any suggestions from the experts?

Thanks
Skip

[s/v Jedi]

Bob: I don't plan to use anything like varnish; it's probably gonna be oil or may be even nothing at all, just bare. Even if the panels warp a bit, I'll get them flat when fastened. I am done with varnished cabin sole . . .

About heat-gun or not: when you don't heat it before coating with epoxy, it will heat up a little when the epoxy cures (because the epoxy gets warm), which leads to the air inside the panel expanding and little air-bubbles in the epoxy-coat. When you sand, you open the bubbles up and there is un-coated wood again. The first time I tried the heat gun I realized the little time it takes is well worth it, the difference is very noticeable.

Skip: So, right now, you do not have access to all of your bilges? I would definitely change that and create panels that can be removed for the complete floor. There is one electric tool that will allow you to cut the panels from your current floor: the Fein Multimaster. It allows you to cut the floor right in the corner with bulkheads, seats etc. You would use the round saw blade plus the depth stop. The depth stop allows you to cut the floorboard but not that what is supporting it underneath. For round corners you would use a hacksaw-blade with some duct tape for a handle and use it's flexibility to cut tight in the corner.

But when you have the panels out and the plywood is good you can sure re-use them. Just fill deep damaged parts with some filler and sand it with 80-grit before epoxying the new finish on.

cheers,
Nick.

[skipmac]

Hi Nick,

All sections of the bilge are accessible but the whole floor is not removable, just cut out sections in each area of the floor. So there are strips around the edge of the settees, next to the bulkheads, etc that are permanent and large panels in between that either lift out or unscrew.

I could try cutting out the edge strips but it would be a major project. Additional framing and bracing would have to be added under the floors to support them since the edges where I would cut them out would not be over a frame to screw back into. A whole lot of work for only minimal additional access.

I do like the idea of having the entire floor removable but have too many other items on the list to even think about it. Now just have to figure out how to renew the sole without creating a new headache.

I just recently became aware of the Fein tool on a late night, TV infomercial. Looked great on TV but then every thing looks good in the ads. Without a first hand recommendation didn't feel like investing 1/4 US boat units to find out if I liked it our not. Since you mention it I assume you like it?

[Stillraining]

Feins Patent has ran out and now there are several knock offs...I will more then likely get the Dremel version when I purchase...Cheaper blades and large dealer network as well.

CharlieCobra has the Rockwell version...likes everything about it except the blade attachment system.

[bobfnbw]

skip, i love the fein multimaster but its not without its problems.
for 1, expensive to buy and the reusables are as well ( blades, sanding attachments, etc) The dust collector is a add on and not good IMO.
The tool is loud as well, I keep telling my self to wear ear protection.... maybe one day I will...
I could not be doing the work onboard without it. I would not substitute the lookalike clones for the fein. It is really worth the bucks if you can swing it.

Nice, I was tring to get the teak plywood, but they all were dificult to get here in the US.

[Stillraining]

Bob...Just curious, have you compared the clones?