Cabin sole: Teak/Holly or Teak only

[scherzoja]

I am replacing the delaminated teak/holly plywood veneer with solid teak and am at a mental deadlock about whether to replicate teak/holly with teak/maple or omit the maple and use walnut granules to replicate the longitudinal striping. Strips of walnut granules would be about 1/4" wide and directly over the teak/teak joints.

Attached are two pictures of what I am explaining. First picture is from Dashew's Beowolf and is some kind of grit (walnut shells, sandpaper grit, rubber granules??) and the second picture is teak/maple.

My preference is teak/maple, but that is twice as much milling and twice the number of glue joints.

Sole will be made of solid teak glued into panels, then installed into the existing fiberglass sole. This fiberglass sole is a molded non-skid original factory sole that is standard and my boat has the optional teak/holly veneer plywood. I found a great deal on 3/4" teak flooring that I'll mill down to 2 1/4 or 2 1/2" strips, so I'll remove the failing plywood and replace with the teak strips.

Aside from the additional milling, my reservation of inserting maple strips is the additional glue joints.

For those who used teak/maple, what adhesive did you use on the edges and how is it holding up? Did you use any sort of thin sheet underlayment to which you adhered the teak/maple strips to help the glue joints stay together?

Non-skid on teak/maple would be translucent granules scattered across entire surface. Non-skid for teak/walnut shells would be just the walnut shell strips, nothing on the teak.

Finish would be polyurethane or varnish.

Edit: Third option, Teak and Maple, unfinished. Reservations about unfinished is with staining of the teak from spills (oil, blood, food substances, etc...). Anyone with unfinished solid teak cabin sole can give feedback on the staining issue? This is actually my first choice because, although I'm pretty good at varnishing, I'd prefer not to have an large area to maintain. I removed all exterior teak for that very reason (rather spend time sailing than maintaining exterior wood). Cabin sole is not exterior, but it's constantly walked on and things dropped on.

[LakeSuperior]

I have an all teak sole. It has an oil finish. It looks almost as good as the day it was launched in 1980.

That said, I have three area carpets down for the last 6 years to give it a more homey look and feel. They are not to hide the sole.

BTW, although it may be in more use during these wood starved modern times, maple is a non-traditional boat building material. It is subject rot in a short amount of time.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

I have an all teak sole. It has an oil finish. It looks almost as good as the day it was launched in 1980.

That said, I have three area carpets down for the last 6 years to give it a more homey look and feel. They are not to hide the sole.

BTW, although it may be in more use during these wood starved modern times, maple is a non-traditional boat building material. It is subject rot in a short amount of time.

Afaik, holly has always been hard maple.

[LakeSuperior]

From Professor Gene Wengert, forum technical advisor:
Contributor A is correct about hard maple, but hard maple darkens with exposure to light while holly stays whiter. The cost of holly means that it is used only in the more expensive craft.

“Holly is used in cabin soles for several reasons. First, it is almost pure white, contrasting nicely with teak. Second, unlike many light hardwoods such as ash and oak, it does not permanently stain black when it gets wet, so it is not necessary to varnish a teak and holly sole.”
- from practical-sailor.com/marine/teakcabinsole.pdf

“This left the white wood "proud" of the teak. Traditionally the teak and holly was run fore and, so that the raised holly gave some non skid from side to side as the vessel heeled.”
- from thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/164870-teak-holly-flooring.html

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

From Professor Gene Wengert, forum technical advisor:
Contributor A is correct about hard maple, but hard maple darkens with exposure to light while holly stays whiter. The cost of holly means that it is used only in the more expensive craft.

“Holly is used in cabin soles for several reasons. First, it is almost pure white, contrasting nicely with teak. Second, unlike many light hardwoods such as ash and oak, it does not permanently stain black when it gets wet, so it is not necessary to varnish a teak and holly sole.”
- from practical-sailor.com/marine/teakcabinsole.pdf

“This left the white wood "proud" of the teak. Traditionally the teak and holly was run fore and, so that the raised holly gave some non skid from side to side as the vessel heeled.”

- from thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/164870-teak-holly-flooring.html

I've been fortunate to have been aboard a boat with the white wood left proud, and it works very well for non-skid. Iirc, neither it nor the teak was treated, with anything.

I've also been aboard a boat where the solid teak was left untreated below, and it was nice on bare feet and all non-skid. They both looked good.

I don't much care for the appearance of the way the cabin sole is done on Beowulf, because it is so dark, but I have thought that I might like teak and holly with transparent glass bubbles, on the holly part, because the non-skid can be welcome when your feet are waterlogged, or your sea boots slippery.

If you use the walnut granules, it will make the boat darker, which may not be a problem to you. It is handsome enough.

Ann

[dkenny64]

interesting question.
my wife didn't the teak/holly floor. it was also failing.
I covered with a 5/16 thick mahogany veneer. no strips. yes I made the veneer.
looks great. blends with the teak on the rest of the boat. I can resand to bare wood if needed.
sometimes think outside the box. if I have the teak I would have gone with solid teak. but not the thin veneer..5/16-3/8..

-dkenny64

[rls8r]

If you're going to leave the sole unfinished (you mention that while you know how to varnish - you're not fond of doing it) - go with the teak & holly. Yes, it's a bit more expensive ($16/bf for 4/4 clear vs $7.50/bf for 4/4 hard maple around Annapolis) but it resists rot well and doesn't stain.

If you're going to varnish (or otherwise seal) the sole - then go with the teak & maple since you won't have to worry about staining the white strips. Perhaps in time the labor and expense of sealing the sole (and keeping it sealed) will eat up the savings, but who knows?? That's for you to ponder.

I re-did a fair amount of the solid teak sole in my boat. I used teak and holly and I sealed it (sort of a belt-and-suspenders guy here). The teak and holly were fit tongue-and-groove so I didn't see any need for a thin underlayment to support the glue seams. I made the pieces with a router - pretty simple once they were, as you say, milled to size. I live in the northern Shenandoah Valley, down the road from a saw mill, so I don't pay 'marine' prices for holly.

I used Titebond III Ultimate to glue the pieces together since I was having a hard time finding resorcinol glue (which I would have preferred). It's been about 3 years now and I haven't had any problems with the pieces separating.

I take advantage of the winter to touch up inside varnish work - like any places that the sole has been damaged by things being dropped on it. That way - the upkeep doesn't interfere with my sailing time. After all - isn't that why winter was invented?

[scherzoja]

Hey y'all,

Thanks for the feedback and I think I'll take a step back and re-assess the sole. I am inclined to follow the path of unfinished (or oiled) teak separated with narrow strips of another wood. Based on the feedback and what I recently learned, I'll exclude Maple (Acer saccharum) and Holly (Ilex opaca) because of their low resistance to rot.

I was under the impression that Holly was used because of color and resistance to rot, but I am clearly wrong (Wood Database, USDA, Practical Sailor). I guess it was used because of its white color and homogenous grain pattern.

If I had typical floors in the boat, then it might have been possible to use Maple because there would be no possibility of pooling water under the sole and the only contact with underside of sole would be just at the widely spaced floors; however, my boat has a fiberglass pan that is the actual sole and the wood sole will sit in this pan. Although I plan to drill holes for water to drain, there will be temporary pooling of water in the pan.

I rebuilt all the interior cabinets with eucalyptus, which I think is Jarrah, Eucalyptus marginata (Wood Database), and might experiment with strips of this wood between the teak.

Attached is a couple of pictures of the cabinets. I don't want to match the cabinets, but it might be nice to have accents that tie into the color/grain pattern of the cabinets.

Since I will leave the surface unfinished (or oiled), the narrow strips (Jarrah, White Oak, or whatever) will stand slightly proud of the teak (Thanks LakeSuperior for that historical reference).

Both teak and Jarrah have a high resistance to rot and, if the color pattern is pleasing and not too dark, I might use this combination (2 1/4" Teak, 1/4" Jarrah); otherwise, I'm leaning towards White Oak (Quercus alba). I'll test the color patterns out, unfinished and oiled.




Wood Database
https://www.wood-database.com/english-holly/
https://www.wood-database.com/jarrah/
https://www.wood-database.com/hard-maple/

Practical Sailor:
https://www.practical-sailor.com/boa...-stop-wood-rot

USDA:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/database/fei...leopa/all.html

[s/v Jedi]

Exactly, maple and holly are not rot resistant. Maple is often used for flooring because of it’s hardness, holly for it’s whiter color.

About crushed walnut shells: as a Dashew Sundeer we have that, don’t like it and will not have it again with new flooring.

[BAD ORCA]

Originally Posted by scherzoja

Hey y'all,

Thanks for the feedback and I think I'll take a step back and re-assess the sole. I am inclined to follow the path of unfinished (or oiled) teak separated with narrow strips of another wood. Based on the feedback and what I recently learned, I'll exclude Maple (Acer saccharum) and Holly (Ilex opaca) because of their low resistance to rot.

I was under the impression that Holly was used because of color and resistance to rot, but I am clearly wrong (Wood Database, USDA, Practical Sailor). I guess it was used because of its white color and homogenous grain pattern.

If I had typical floors in the boat, then it might have been possible to use Maple because there would be no possibility of pooling water under the sole and the only contact with underside of sole would be just at the widely spaced floors; however, my boat has a fiberglass pan that is the actual sole and the wood sole will sit in this pan. Although I plan to drill holes for water to drain, there will be temporary pooling of water in the pan.

I rebuilt all the interior cabinets with eucalyptus, which I think is Jarrah, Eucalyptus marginata (Wood Database), and might experiment with strips of this wood between the teak.

Attached is a couple of pictures of the cabinets. I don't want to match the cabinets, but it might be nice to have accents that tie into the color/grain pattern of the cabinets.

Since I will leave the surface unfinished (or oiled), the narrow strips (Jarrah, White Oak, or whatever) will stand slightly proud of the teak (Thanks LakeSuperior for that historical reference).

Both teak and Jarrah have a high resistance to rot and, if the color pattern is pleasing and not too dark, I might use this combination (2 1/4" Teak, 1/4" Jarrah); otherwise, I'm leaning towards White Oak (Quercus alba). I'll test the color patterns out, unfinished and oiled.




Wood Database
https://www.wood-database.com/english-holly/
https://www.wood-database.com/jarrah/
https://www.wood-database.com/hard-maple/

Practical Sailor:
https://www.practical-sailor.com/boa...-stop-wood-rot

USDA:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/database/fei...leopa/all.html

Is that clear coat on the cabinets just varnish?

[scherzoja]

Bad Orca,

It's varnish, Interlux Schooner #96

First, Seafin Teak Oil (2 coats to soak in), then one more coat oil was wet-sanded in with 320 grit paper and buffed smooth. After about an hour, another coat wet sanded with 320 grit, then buffed with rag.

During the subsequent 4 hours, I periodically wiped each piece to remove any oil leaking out of cracks and small knots.

Oiled wood left to dry for about a week. This by itself was a nice finish, but I wanted a glossy finish, so I continued with varnishing.

Varnish:

Sanded with 360 grit and applied a 50/50 mix of varnish and Naphtha
Next day, light sanding with 220 and coat with 80/20 mix varnish/Naphtha
Next day, light sanding with 220 and 80/10 mix
Next day, light sanding with 220 and 80/10 mix
Next day, light sanding with 220 and 80/10 mix
Next day, thorough sanding with 220 to removed bumps and begin smoothing surface. Apply 100% varnish.

Two days later, thorough sanding with 320 and apply 100% varnish
Two days later, light sanding with 320 and apply 100% varnish
Two days later, accept results or repeat 320 grit/100% varnish.

I vacuumed, wiped with mineral spirits, and lightly tack-clothed between each sanded coat.

I tested with bristle brushes and foam brushes; I preferred foam brushes.
The varnishing is a lot of work. Great results, but too much work to the sole, which I'm going to be walking on and dropping things on.

[Nanamuk]

45 years ago we put a teak and eastern (hard) maple floor in Nanamuk leaving the maple standing proud with edges rounded. We used Cold Cure epoxy to bed the teak and glue in the maple. We coated it with oil based Varethane. We have been very happy with it as it makes excellent non skid, easy to keep clean and looks good. We have had no problem with rot even in the foot well under the gally sink where the fresh water foot pump lives so has had water exposure. The only failure has been about 8 inches of maple separated from the teak on the edge of a hatch so no support on 1 side - easy fix with new epoxy and a couple of #4 3/4" screws. Being able to "lock" you feet to the floor as you struggle to put on your weather gear">foul weather gear far out ways the inconvenience of having to position you knees between the maple strips when on your hands and knees.

[JPA Cate]

Jedi,

What is it about the walnut grit that you dislike? Difficulty of cleaning? too dark? or????

Thanks in advance for saying.

Ann

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Jedi,

What is it about the walnut grit that you dislike? Difficulty of cleaning? too dark? or????

Thanks in advance for saying.

Ann

First thing is that it’s horrible to walk on with bare feet. We need a week to get used to it every time.

Second is that pieces come off over time. Now you get ground walnut shell pieces that are loose on the floor. Think lego’s you step on

After that comes cleaning and dark color. They are well sealed ao cleaning isn’t terrible but compared to a smooth floor it is.

That said, after years of discussion we still didn’t work out what we like for our new floor

[JPA Cate]

Thank you, Jedi.

Maybe the glass ball kind of non-skid would work for you. In whatever width you want. It is a difficult decision. I'd be tempted to try a small area (one cabin?) and see how I liked the new stuff.

Ann