Cold temperatures and vinyl-ester resin

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Wotname

I reckon your maths (or at least your arithmetic) will be spot on and way better than mine .

True confession time, since we've already covered my underwear... my maths is crap. I have a degree in Pure and Applied Mathematics, and as a result I can no longer count. I can MODEL practically any mathematical situation you care to describe, but when it comes to plugging in the numerals, I am woeful. I've had to figure out how to hide this from my students, since a maths teacher who apparently cannot count will not inspire confidence.

I dunno what qualities you are mixing at a time but I have found easier if I first decant the resin from the big tin into a 5 litre plastic container that has screw top (like an oil container) - I used an old acetone bottle. This makes pouring out a measured amount of resin so much easier. You can either mark the sides of the container or use a measured mixing container. For storage just keep it in dark spot i.e. away from UV.

I should have done this. I will see if I have a suitable container. Currently I am decanting from the 20kg tub and it is not all that controlled.


For poly, I use volume measurements as it easier (for me) to measure the catalyst. Do the conversion once (weight to volume). I have been using a small plastic syringe without issue but I have only put maybe 200 ml though it. I also have a 3 ml glass straight sided lab beaker / flask as back up - cheap as chips from china

Yes, my poly stuff has always been by volume. This is the first time I have used vinyl and i wondered if by weight is a standard approach with vinyl vs volume for poly. Or could just be manufacturer specific. Thankfully I have a good set of digital scales. And after the fumes had cleared from my head yesterday I realised I could make life a bit simpler by calculating how much catalyst i needed, THEN zeroing the scales before adding it. Saved one addition.

I only work in 100 ml (or 100 gram) steps for the resin so the maths stays easy - fumes or not!

That might work if I can pour it more accurately using your suggestion.

_____

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by GILow

........

I liked the idea because of the fumes issue, but I was worried that there might be some adverse effect by blowing away the boundary layer of chemicals? Fore and Aft has clearly been happy with it, but would you go with his approach or your spot heating approach?

Or both?

Unless this is some special vinyl ester thing, you might be overthinking the airflow effects. Lots of resins get used outdoors on windy days without ill effects IME.

Curious and off topic but does vinyl use wax or similar like poly?

[Wotname]

HAHA, sorry to laugh but a maths major with zero arithmetic skills and trying to hide from students after posting it on the internet...

Yes, getting smallish qualities from a 20 kg container is frustrating. I might add getting into a container with a smaller opening was also difficult but a decent size funnel plus patience made it doable. Ideally an oil container would have been better but I was too lazy to clean one up enough.

Thinking aloud, could some type of 20 litre honey dispenser be used??????????

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Wotname

HAHA, sorry to laugh but a maths major with zero arithmetic skills and trying to hide from students after posting it on the internet...

Do you honestly think anyone of high school age is going to be looking in THIS forum? The poor buggers will fall asleep by the third response.

As for the honey dispenser idea, have you any idea how much 20 litres of honey would cost!!!? It would be cheaper to pay a pro to make my tanks.

Anyway, how's your resto going?

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by GILow

Do you honestly think anyone of high school age is going to be looking in THIS forum? The poor buggers will fall asleep by the third response.

As for the honey dispenser idea, have you any idea how much 20 litres of honey would cost!!!? It would be cheaper to pay a pro to make my tanks.

Anyway, how's your resto going?

Never thought getting the honey with the dispenser but as a concept to cobble something similar up. Might think about more while sitting fireside

Resto frozen due to winter

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Resto frozen due to winter

Which is EXACTLY why I am stuffing around with vinylester at the moment fabricating tanks. This tank is so that I DONT freeze when I am down there with you.

[Wind River]

Originally Posted by GILow

That's promising?

What do you think about Fore and Aft's idea of the blower style heater?

I liked the idea because of the fumes issue, but I was worried that there might be some adverse effect by blowing away the boundary layer of chemicals? Fore and Aft has clearly been happy with it, but would you go with his approach or your spot heating approach?

Or both?

Anything that brings the temperature up to get the chemical reaction going will do the trick. Infrared heat lamps might keep the working area cooler but still heat the surfaces.

I'm pretty sure there is no issue with the fan blowing on the surface. As far as I know it is all a chemical reaction within the resin. The last outer layer that is exposed to air will need to be covered with peelply or PVA if you want it to cure in any reasonable time frame.

[Wind River]

Originally Posted by Wotname

I dunno what qualities you are mixing at a time but I have found easier if I first decant the resin from the big tin into a 5 litre plastic container that has screw top (like an oil container) - I used an old acetone bottle. This makes pouring out a measured amount of resin so much easier. You can either mark the sides of the container or use a measured mixing container. For storage just keep it in dark spot i.e. away from UV.

I bought my resin in a 55 gallon drum, so I put it into eleven 5 gallon pails.
Make sure you mix the resin well before putting it into smaller containers as the solids tend to settle to the bottom over time.

[capt.rob]

Just a note for people that don't realise about diesel and fiberglass, most especially older fiberglass boats are constructed with Polyester Rezin, It is Ok for gas BUT Diesel is a totally diferent story, it will soften and destroy it. You need to use isothalic, epoxy or other rezin that can hold up to diesel fuel. If you build a tank in an old existing fiberglass boat be sure you reglass the interior hull and all interior areas of the tank with a proper diesel resistant rezin. If you dont the diesel will desolve and peneterte through the polyester resin of the hull. I speak from experience. I had to add a 500 gal tank to a boat back in the 90's used the standard polyester worked fine for about a month then it was a leaking disaster that almost not only destroyed the tank but the integrity of the hull itself, only thing that saved the hull was the paint the bildge was painted with. it did do damage it were I had ground and attached the new glass tank but since the new glass gave way first it was reparable.

[jharding]

GIlow and others using poly or vinylester, have you considered using epoxy. There are no fumes and with the pumps no problem getting the exact right amount of mixture, it also is a better on the secondary mechanical bond and more resistant to some liquids. I do understand it is more expensive especially West System, there are other epoxys that are very good and much better priced. In the end I find the materials are a small part of the whole project, and the amount of time spent, I like to use the best materials so I don't have a problem and have to redo the project. I have built a few projects in cold weather, I put my epoxy containers in a bucket of hot water for an hour before using it and it has always kicked off, heat lamps on the surface also is a good idea. I'm getting ready to rip out my refrigeration and reglass and insulate then build a new inner box in place, I live on my boat and could not imagine doing it with the fumes from anything besides epoxy. My 35 year old fiberglass diesel tanks are like new inside, there are many horror stories about aluminum and stainless also, I love my glass tanks.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by jharding

GIlow and others using poly or vinylester, have you considered using epoxy. There are no fumes and with the pumps no problem getting the exact right amount of mixture, it also is a better on the secondary mechanical bond and more resistant to some liquids. I do understand it is more expensive especially West System, there are other epoxys that are very good and much better priced. In the end I find the materials are a small part of the whole project, and the amount of time spent, I like to use the best materials so I don't have a problem and have to redo the project. I have built a few projects in cold weather, I put my epoxy containers in a bucket of hot water for an hour before using it and it has always kicked off, heat lamps on the surface also is a good idea. I'm getting ready to rip out my refrigeration and reglass and insulate then build a new inner box in place, I live on my boat and could not imagine doing it with the fumes from anything besides epoxy. My 35 year old fiberglass diesel tanks are like new inside, there are many horror stories about aluminum and stainless also, I love my glass tanks.

Good points, thank you.

Yes, I did consider using epoxy, and price was no problem as I have plenty left over from doing the decks. (Actually, on that basis it probably would have been cheaper.)

But again and again I found recommendations that I stick to vinyl-ester, and my supplier, who could have sold me both, said vinyl-ester, which kinda sealed the deal for me.

But yeah, I'd rather be using epoxy for this job, that's for sure. I am much more comfortable using it now that I have overcome my fear of it to do the decks.

My refrigerator box project is coming up, and it will be a start-from-scratch job. Thankfully access is good, so I will be able to build it at home, but I am still unsure whether I will use epoxy of vinyl ester for that job. I guess I will be influence in part by what materials I have left over, unless you can think of any reason to go one way or the other. (Aside from the fumes.) Either way, I hope it is better than my hot water tank experiment, which looks horrible.

[dfelsent]

One comment, nothing to do with diesel. When I was a kid I sailed on a boat with an improperly cured polyester icebox. We couldn’t use it as everything tasted like resin smells.
Take extra care with your fridge to make sure that everything is not just fully cured but has had time and temperature to outgas. NOT saying don’t do it. Saying take care.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by capt.rob

Just a note for people that don't realise about diesel and fiberglass, most especially older fiberglass boats are constructed with Polyester Rezin, It is Ok for gas BUT Diesel is a totally diferent story, it will soften and destroy it. You need to use isothalic, epoxy or other rezin that can hold up to diesel fuel. If you build a tank in an old existing fiberglass boat be sure you reglass the interior hull and all interior areas of the tank with a proper diesel resistant rezin. If you dont the diesel will desolve and peneterte through the polyester resin of the hull. I speak from experience. I had to add a 500 gal tank to a boat back in the 90's used the standard polyester worked fine for about a month then it was a leaking disaster that almost not only destroyed the tank but the integrity of the hull itself, only thing that saved the hull was the paint the bildge was painted with. it did do damage it were I had ground and attached the new glass tank but since the new glass gave way first it was reparable.

Well, I am using vinyl ester for this job, because that is the recommendation I keep getting, but I am a bit surprised by your experience. Integral keel tanks are very common on old fibreglass boats, and most give no trouble at all. I've seen 40 year old tanks that were fine.

Maybe those tanks were lined with vinyl ester when they were built? Not sure. But I've never heard it mentioned. Actually, I have never read of your experience anywhere, and I did read a heck of lot on this subject before I got started.

The speed of your failure suggests maybe some other factors were at play?

[jharding]

GIlow, I'm curious why your supplier suggested vinyl, I've been under the impression that epoxy is always a better choice.

[Wind River]

I have two integral fiberglass diesel tanks in my boat totaling 340 gallons. They are now 37 years old with no apparent issues.

I don't know any details of their construction but at this point I am happy to have them. I think it was one of Nigel Calder's books that put me at ease with my tanks.