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nortonscove · 18-03-2021, 18:10

What type metals are we looking at? That alone will give some guidance.

Pandor · 18-03-2021, 18:13

Ok, enough fear mongering. This doesn’t seem likely to be a keel bolt issue (and never did IMO). Fairing seems much more plausible based on the photographs and the survey.

If I were the purchaser, I’d be ready to do the deal. It may be worth it just to express your keen interest to the seller and ask if you can do a little destructive exploration of the crack since it needs to be repaired anyway. Just hit it gently with a light grinder and you can be assured it is what the survey said.

Clivevon · 18-03-2021, 18:17

"If the survey turns up something awful the contract allows me to walk."

In your shoes, I would assume this fault on the keel is awful - i.e. a major structural fault costing many thousands of dollars to put right, involving maybe dropping the entire keel to put right a leak from a faulty or misplaced keel bolt - because IT COULD BE. You just don't know.

Or it could be a very easy fix taking a couple of hours work to put right a simple "fairing issue" maybe (in which case why has it not been done since 2017 ?), but I am guessing that is not the case.

You have mentioned several bad indicators here:
"You are getting a 'great deal' on an 'as is' basis". You think. Well, you can't say you haven't been told...
The keel has just been freshly painted. Not the hull. Just the keel. Funny, that, no?
The seller is volunteering nothing, leaving you to come up with the right questions to ask. Not the best sign.

Its your money (for the moment)...

Clivevon · 18-03-2021, 18:19

What I meant to say is that it might be something or it might be nothing but surely it is up to the seller to find out what the problem is, not you?

sailingabe41ds · 18-03-2021, 19:02

Why not get a few boatyards to take a look at it, get their opinion and ask how much to fix. Then you can negotiate that with the seller.

Abe

boatpoker · 18-03-2021, 19:18

[QUOTE=Notyetsinking;3367188]Hi,

For your own inspection or discussions with your surveyor this may help ...

Moisture Meter Mythology and Flir thermal imager

Gary Mc · 18-03-2021, 19:31

I believe that I have seen something like that on my boat. I just sanded it, did not have to grind it, and found it was just a local flaw that had gotten wet and expanded. Just needed to be sanded and repainted.

I think the seller should be able to sand that spot and take off bottom paint etc. without getting too carried away, and you will be able to see what is going on.

Good Luck

Notyetsinking · 18-03-2021, 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Don't get " blinded" by an attractive $$ price.

I've read enough posts here to say, we are all pretty much in agreement that some or other problem exists here.

We are not there, off course, so can't see the boat or talk with anyone...so have to makes some assumptions or guesses, but it's clear that the general consensus is that this situation is "not normal"...

It's equally clear, that your experience with sailboats, is somewhat tender, I don't mean to say this in a bad way, just want you to recognize you have been given some sound advice here...unless you have already signed on the dotted line.....this would be a good time to stand back, take a deep breath, and really have this situation evaluated....and most importantly, walk away if warranted.

Sailboats have the unique ability to bring lust to your eyes, where you are willing to overlook the obvious. Boat brokers are well aware of this, they want to sell the boat, period. That's their job. Selling the boat, especially one that could be " iffy" and has been on the market for some time, a naive buyer is easily manipulated by them as they know the next buyer might be a long time coming. The "attractive" price on this boat is worrisome to me. We, (us posters) know little else about this boat, which would be most helpful, but it is what it is.

A boat surveyor is not necessarily your friend, his job is to inspect the boat and report what he sees. Additional probings, soundings, etc, are going to be on your dime, he may opt to do these things himself or sub them out. At the end of the day, you are going to spend more money on a boat you may walk away from. This is tough to do after you have plowed a considerable sum of money into haulouts, surveys, etc.

I am also a licensed Professional engineer, my forte has been in the structural marine environment, now retired, but I have done countless forensic inspections, and my gut instinct tells me this situation warrants a closer look. If you are in the engineering field, it would help to put a second set of eyes on this, someone from work maybe, etc.

You wouldn't be here posting on this forum unless you had some doubts. It's a good time to be a " bit of a nut in this regard" as you say.

You’re not far off here, though I think now on several occasions I have acknowledged the value in continuing with a closer look to CONFIRM it is as the previous survey reported. As to my experience, in ownership yes this is new to me. However, I am intimately aware of the costs and issues that can arise from an old boat. I grew up on a C&C 40, and as an experienced marine person I imagine you have some idea of the balsa issues those boats had. I can’t even begin to estimate the number of hours we spent working on the thing, or the amount of money that was spent. I am also keenly aware of the emotion involved with boats, and cars for that matter, which is the purpose of this thread. I want the perspective from those with no emotional ties to the situation. Again, I will be having some portion grinded down or otherwise evaluated in acknowledgement of the things I have heard here.

To your other points, I very much understand the goal of any sales person, and I think it should to this point be clear that I make decisions on data. The boat is a great price for ME, not in relation to market conditions. The boat is a “good price” because I am a very unusual buyer with wants that are very uncommon. A deep draft semi-custom race boat with a composite heavy interior is already a tiny market; Throw in the fact that it’s PHRF rating is optimistic, and you are selling to an almost non-existent market. I made an offer that reflected the market conditions, not the quality of the boat, and it was accepted. For the boat I am looking for, it is a great price. I am certain if this exact boat was sold under the J boat name, it would be out of reach.

My father is an engineer, and a sailor of 40 years. His first thought upon seeing the crack was a fairing issue, following the same line of thinking as I had regarding the location of the crack. I have pushed back to some extent on the idea of it being a bolt issue, because the physics of that explanation does not seem to work. With your background, I would certainly like to hear your thoughts on the matter, but at the moment the keel bolts seem like the least likely explanation. I will be checking the bolts tomorrow, and for stress cracks around the structure that might indicate something more serious. However, that again seems unlikely given the soft bottom the boat has operated in since the last very successful report from 2017. Regardless, in my mind the most likely explanations are either a fairing or casting issue. One being cosmetic the either catastrophic to the point I would walk away.

Notyetsinking · 18-03-2021, 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivevon

"If the survey turns up something awful the contract allows me to walk."

In your shoes, I would assume this fault on the keel is awful - i.e. a major structural fault costing many thousands of dollars to put right, involving maybe dropping the entire keel to put right a leak from a faulty or misplaced keel bolt - because IT COULD BE. You just don't know.

Or it could be a very easy fix taking a couple of hours work to put right a simple "fairing issue" maybe (in which case why has it not been done since 2017 ?), but I am guessing that is not the case.

You have mentioned several bad indicators here:
"You are getting a 'great deal' on an 'as is' basis". You think. Well, you can't say you haven't been told...
The keel has just been freshly painted. Not the hull. Just the keel. Funny, that, no?
The seller is volunteering nothing, leaving you to come up with the right questions to ask. Not the best sign.

Its your money (for the moment)...

I am going to clarify “great deal” as I see now that is misleading. It seems that has been interpreted, understandably so, to mean that the agreed on price is well below it’s nominal value. This is not at all the case, just a reflection of the market. I intended “great deal” to reflect the type of boat I am looking for, not a price reflective of market conditions. In terms of market value, people generally do not want a boat like this, especially in the US. My offer reflects this. I in no way meant that in the sense of buying a first 40 at $100k when general market value dictates $150k.

To your point about the keel being painted, I thought the same though the broker claims the entire bottom was repainted. I will agree it does appear some sort of coverup was attempted. As to why the fairing wasn’t repaired, I have no idea. However, having two reports from two marine professionals documenting the same issues in my mind will be more than enough.

Notyetsinking · 18-03-2021, 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandor

Ok, enough fear mongering. This doesn’t seem likely to be a keel bolt issue (and never did IMO). Fairing seems much more plausible based on the photographs and the survey.

If I were the purchaser, I’d be ready to do the deal. It may be worth it just to express your keen interest to the seller and ask if you can do a little destructive exploration of the crack since it needs to be repaired anyway. Just hit it gently with a light grinder and you can be assured it is what the survey said.

I am in complete agreement with this. Some have mentioned casting and that in my mind and current knowledge is much more likely than keel bolts. I could certainly be wrong, but I have not seen any explanation as to how a crack caused by the bolts would not find its way up to the keel joint. And as you and others have mentioned, a quick grind to confirm this shouldn’t be an issue. I will certainly make the purchase contingent on that, as the sellers reaction would almost be an answer in of itself.

**Jim Cate** · 18-03-2021, 21:39

One more time, NOtyet: is it lead or cast iron or ectoplasm or what? It makes so much difference in how to interpret the evidence. Do please tell us

Jim

Notyetsinking · 18-03-2021, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Boy it's a weird one. But if you are buying a one off/few off old racing boat, it wouldn't scare me too much. I would ask a ton of questions though. I'd be tapping it a lot with a hammer, looking closely inside, and if it seems solid move on with the purchase, you're already a bit of a gambler.
It's ballast, it used to be rocks in the bilge. Maybe it's a steel pipe cut in half and welded to a steel keel, hard to say.
The "crack" almost looks like corroding aluminum weld. Is the boat aluminum?

Ask the owner where it was built, how it was built etc. If there's a broker in between, tell him you want to meet with the owner at the boat or you are not buying. Pick his brain. Owners almost always say too much!

People of this thread have continually asked about the construction, builder etc of the boat. I have intentionally been vague on the builder/model as doing so would remove any level of anonymity which I value at this stage in the process. If it helps, it is 1/1 for sale at the moment.

Construction: mentioned earlier, uni-directional e-glass sandwiched w divinycell foam core and epoxy infused via SCRIMP. The build, even by current standards, is top notch.
Builder: Again, attempting to keep this some what private until/if the sale goes through. The yard has a very good reputation, which was the initial reason for my interest as I have not heard anything but good things. I can’t personally make the comparison but other forums seem to rate the yard around or just below the quality of McConaghy. I understand this is not the most helpful, but should provide some level of insight to the quality of the boat. I can say it is certainly not Carroll Marine, which these forums have actually scared me away from the purchase of a farr395.

Notyetsinking · 18-03-2021, 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

One more time, NOtyet: is it lead or cast iron or ectoplasm or what? It makes so much difference in how to interpret the evidence. Do please tell us

Jim

And as I have stated, I will get back with the keel and bolts material when I get the technical documents tomorrow. The broker was not sure.