cracks in keel top in bilge

[RaymondR]

Hard to say from the images what the construction is. I would take to the surrounds with a hammer and cold chisel and see if you can find clean, non corroded material. Of it's not to extensive it may be fairly easy to fix.

[pelagic4005]

I'm not that sensitive, it didn't even occur to me

Originally Posted by Buddy_Y

Ouch. (BTW, sorry not to have noted that you thought of the steel core issue first.) So I guess that the rust leaking from the keel outside is proof positive that it's a steel cored keel?

[s/v Jedi]

I would clean those outside spots with sandpaper to see what that is. Is it a steel keel skin? Is there a hole that is seeping?

I once had concrete ballast in a steel keel and was happy to not have it anymore. You heel much more compared to a lead ballast keel.

[jcdubreuil]

Hi,

I own a nordica 30 wich have lacked proper maintenance for a while. They are nice boat, really handle the bad weather nicely and it is indeed an encapsulated keel composed of concrete and steel punchings. From what I see in your pic, you are showing the top of the keel, wich is basically concrete that was glassed over. Altough I did not have this on my boat, I did have this kind of cracks in both bilges(there is one under the engine, one inside the cabin). I found out water was seeping in the keel from those cracks, so glassed over it. Also, PO got onto a reef and made a mess fixing up the keel, so saltwater also got into the keel We had to grind the cracks and glass over it.

I would absolutly glass over those rusty spot in a proper way. I also live in the north of Quebec, so when getting out of the water at the end of the season, i have a drain plug at the bottom of the keel to make sure no water sit in there through the winter. If that water froze, you could have big problem.

As for the rust in the keel expanding, there doesnt seem to be a lot of iron, and if it is not exposed to air, it will not rust. I did not see any rust when I ground the keel, except after a few week of being exposed to air.

We also have the original volvo md7b, it is a good engine, but it is a bit underpowered.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask, I really like my boat overall, but it needed lot of TLC a paid it accordingly. I know a guy wich crossed the big pond 2 times, and might intend to do the same at some point.

P.S : English is my second language, so please be forgiving

[barnakiel]

Well.


I do not share all this pessimism here.


Fact one: Nordica 20 had lead ballast.


So why would Nordica 30 go to such lengths as to replace the best material with some crap (e.g. metal scrap and cement???). UNLIKELY


Fact two: the crack seems pretty cosmetic. It may simply be superficial, or a sign that the boat took ground once and the upper casing of the ballast got pressed and cracked. Or it may have cracked when a less handy travelift operator handled the boat, etc.


It is odd, indeed, that your bilge is so shallow. In this kind of designs the bilge tends to be 1-3 ft deep - hence the question if the ballast were lead - what is placed on to of it ??? Is there perhaps any kind of a tank? Have you knosked?


IMHO the boat is a super find and should be investigated further. How much is a travelift and one day storage on dry out there?


barnakiel

[barnakiel]

This guy (contact at the bottom of his page) had both 16 and 20 Nordicas.


Why not bomb him anemail and ask if he has any clues?


https://sites.google.com/site/peterdeppisch/boats


barnakiel

[caffel]

Pete7 has an excellent point: Freezing.
The standing water that you mentioned has traveled downward into every minor crack and porosity, then froze and de-laminated whatever it penetrated.
Regardless of the more complex considerations mentioned and localized findings beneath the gelcoat, better to grind away all of it to examine the extent of the frost damage.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Well.

I do not share all this pessimism here.

Fact one: Nordica 20 had lead ballast.

So why would Nordica 30 go to such lengths as to replace the best material with some crap (e.g. metal scrap and cement???). UNLIKELY

Fact two: the crack seems pretty cosmetic. It may simply be superficial, or a sign that the boat took ground once and the upper casing of the ballast got pressed and cracked. Or it may have cracked when a less handy travelift operator handled the boat, etc.

It is odd, indeed, that your bilge is so shallow. In this kind of designs the bilge tends to be 1-3 ft deep - hence the question if the ballast were lead - what is placed on to of it ??? Is there perhaps any kind of a tank? Have you knosked?

IMHO the boat is a super find and should be investigated further. How much is a travelift and one day storage on dry out there?
barnakiel

I agree with some of this.It's ballast, if it's there... it works. (if the boat is a bargain) If there's water, drill some holes and let it out. Glass over any ingress. Freezing can be an issue, I've seen it in a concrete encapsulated iron ballast. Big bulge outside the keel.

Buddy Y: Regarding the bilge depth... are you sure there isn't a deeper bilge aft? Many boats are like that mid boat....

[jcdubreuil]

Since I own one and worked the ballast, I'm sure this is concrete with steel punching, at least partially. But the steel punchings are very sparse, and I think there might be lead somewhere, just haven't found it yet. The lynaes 29, basically the same design as the Nordica 30, has lead ballast.

[Exctyengr]

I think that we may be overthinking this and making more of an issue than is really there. I suspect that the cracks on top of the hull are shrinkage cracks from resin. Not structural. The cracks along the leading edge of the keel are a different matter. As someone earlier opined when steel rusts it expands; now when it expands it exerts enormous forces. What I would do is to clean the surface of rust and inspect for cracks then grind through the surface into the steel or concrete and steel ballast. Clean it back to rust free metal then encapsulate in new fiberglass and epoxy. I assume that you haul every year if so just inspect this area annually. If any additional rusting occurs, treat it immediately,

[johnn33]

You might talk to these people who could see more photos

https://boataffair.com/boats/560
John

[Buddy_Y]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Does it get cold during the winter in Ontario? would rain water leaking down into the keel freeze during the winter. Would any fresh water entering the keel when the boat was last in the water freeze during the winters? Finally has the ballast turned to a completely rusty mush

Pete

Indeed, the weather gets below freezing in Ontario in the winter. (Though the winters are not as bad as they used to be.) In this region, the temperature in winter fluctuates below and above freezing in the winter, so water turns to ice and back again repeatedly. I'm being convinced by this thread that this has compromised the keel from above in the flooded cabin all the way down through the keel to the rust outbursts low on it.

[Buddy_Y]

Originally Posted by johnn33

You might talk to these people who could see more photos

https://boataffair.com/boats/560
John

Indeed, I'd already found their website and sifted it to get an idea of the "before" look for this potential project. Good tip!

[Buddy_Y]

Regarding the possibility that the cracks in the top are just gelcoat or resin, it appeared to be bare concrete to me.

Thanks for the info, Jcdubreuil! If i buy the boat, I'll definitely be hitting you up for advice.

[Buddy_Y]

Thanks for the advice everyone! Pessimism is creeping in, alas. The boat was already a marginal project, and its saving grace was that it was a blank slate -- no huge issues, just absences.

The fuller story on the boat is that the PO, after going out west and leaving the boat basically untended on the hard for years, came back to find it flooded. He subsequently hired someone to rehabilitate it, but says that this person developed health problems after tearing out the interior. Thus, he gave up and decided to sell it, in part because of storage costs.

I'm attaching an interior shot below. (Taken from the 'for sale' ad.) As you can see, she's gutted. No electrical left, no plumbing worth the name, the wood taken out, no electronics. The old engine would have to be replaced too. And there's not a stick of wood on the deck from the tillers to the toe rails that isn't scrapwood.

Yet, the mast is pristine, the decks seem to have no soft spots, and the hull seems fine to me. The sails and cushions are in storage and are allegedly in good shape. ("Allegedly" because I haven't seen them and the owner is problematical. For example, he claimed that the boat had full working electrical system on the phone. Upon inspection, I found every single wire and panel and light fixture torn out, except for a couple ancient rust strands dangling like cobwebs. Zero percent electrical system, not one hundred percent -- quite the difference.)

Yet, for the nominal price being asked, a person could justify the costs of new electrical, new carpentry, and a new engine etc, if they were willing to do the work themselves. I've rewired a couple of older boats back in the day, I've got a humble little wood shop, and I already priced a repowering with a local mechanic / Beta rep. It was doable.

But alas, if the keel needs to be dug out? I can't see a DYI amateur like me messing with jackhammers alas.

Perhaps instead of guessing, and instead of peeling out bucks for a full survey, I should engage a maritime mechanic for an hour just to come out and check this one problem? I've got a suspicion he'd poke around a bit and then tell me to run away.