Cryogel Z

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by roverhi

Has anyone had any success finding polyisocysnurate foam insulation?? Supposedly way superior to styrofoam and way less money than aerogel. Supposed to be available at a lot of places but no one has been able to source it.

It has better R value than other foams but it absorbs water.
Ask me how I know.
That's why I re rebuilt with Cryogel several years ago.

Edit:
That "crumbly yellow crap" was most likely polyisocyanurate foam.
It's probably true that if it's perfectly sealed it would not get wet, but in a place unavailable for inspection for years, why take the chance?
The "do over" isn't insignificant either !

[exMaggieDrum]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

The R-Max sold at Home depot is classic PolyIsocyanurate and will make a Great box. I fight this myth all the time. It's lined with foil on each side and then you us foil tape to seal up the cut edges. Then a proper vapor barrier and it works great.

What makes insulation wet is air movement and condensation, so if you deal with that properly PolyIso won't be an issue. Ignore if ofcourse and you have problems.

I guess I got sucked in to the myth somehow. I'll look in to it more.

Is there any advantage to using it over the Dow blue board? I don't mind putting foil on everything if it needs it.

[exMaggieDrum]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

It has better R value than other foams but it absorbs water.
Ask me how I know.
That's why I re rebuilt with Cryogel several years ago.

Edit:
That "crumbly yellow crap" was most likely polyisocyanurate foam.
It's probably true that if it's perfectly sealed it would not get wet, but in a place unavailable for inspection for years, why take the chance?
The "do over" isn't insignificant either !

This is where I was coming from FWIW. The stuff in my fridge I have to take out appears to be the same stuff. But I'm willing to learn about it all to get a good system.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I am just researching some potential additional insulation around our fridge and came across this:

"Polyisocyanurate:*Rated at R6-6.5 per inch, but don't count on that.*Most insulations actually perform a bit better the colder it gets but polyisocyanurate*breaks that rule. As of about 15°C*its performance starts to deteriorate, and badly."

See here:
http://www.ecohome.net/guide/polyiso...duct-learn-use

I have no idea if there is any truth in the statement. So comments from the fridge experts would be appreciated.

It's a Internet Panic Point....why....because how much of the PolyIso is actually "seeing" that lower temp and then for that small thin layer how much R-value do you actually lose? Not enough to worry about, in the real world and from our Box Testing but it does make for great internet fact throwing.

The negative with the blue Board is that you need 1/3 MORE insulation to get the same Value as PolyIso. That my friends is a LOT of space. So if you are worried about water absorption, use 1" of Blue Board against the Cold walls of your Box and use PolyIso for the rest. Then you have some water protection, some cold/loss of R-value protections and then you also have the 1/3 R-value improvement of PolyIso over Blue Board.

I'm about to start a freezer Box rebuild on my own boat and I'll be using all PolyIso Board from Home Depot with a nice vapor barrier to protect it...it should serve me well down in Hot Mexico. I don't "object" to the Blue Board, I just don't like losing 1/3 of my R-value for something that's manageable with a good vapor barrier. But if you have the room...sure Blue Board will work.

[exMaggieDrum]

One of my big concerns is penetrations in to whatever insulation I will have. It's nice to think that you will never want or need to put a screw in to a reefer liner I have found that there are multiple reasons to do that. So one of my requirements is to have something, at least for the first inch, that does not require a 100% perfect vapor barrier.

I have ruled out VIP for that reason along with the reason that just nicking it during installation will ruin a whole panel.

I am thinking I am going to mix and match my materials. The reason I was considering the Cryogel in the first place was for space savings that I need so I am very concerned about overall thickness. I want a bigger reefer section and don't need such a big freezer so one is more an issue than the other, but the freezer also needs a higher R value. I'm going to look at the layers and mix and match.

Other than the Cryogel, the cost of the different construction foams is negligible. I can see how you get 1.3 more R per inch with the polyiso but I just don't like it. I'm sure it will work well though when it is put in correctly, just like all of the products. I'll do some more doodling on my space requirements later after getting off of here.

Why am I surprised that not everyone agrees with each other on the forum?

Noelex - thanks for the article reference. Interesting.

[Typhoon]

You have chosen the Cool Blue system ! Good chose , us TXV guys have to stick together. Its not hard , there is only two of us out there to chose from and Rich builds a fine unit .

We use XPS or Bluboard on the first layer of all our box builds for a couple of reasons. First , tests have proven that Polyiso does not like the cold , whether that is true or not is a moot point as it is really only one layer to worry about . In fact tests have shown that XPS improves R value as it gets colder , again no big deal , these small differences will never be realized in any AH savings in the long run. The main reason is, if you have built your liner out of the box as I do, and then put it in the box , you can guaranty that it is going to be a tight fit , at least it should be if you did your measuring right .

We make ours so tight we have to grease them to get them in ! Now if that first layer is Polyiso with that silver foil on it , there is a chance that surface may get a hole or a tear in it from all the pushing and shoving that goes on ....... , goodbye vapor barrier !

Also watch the amount of wood you use , remember wood makes a poor insulator and you will end up with all sorts of thermal bridging ,( this you will see in more AH used) if you have to use it to frame your doors or top off your liner keep it as thin as possible .

Regards John.

[Typhoon]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

It has better R value than other foams but it absorbs water.
Ask me how I know.
That's why I re rebuilt with Cryogel several years ago.

Edit:
That "crumbly yellow crap" was most likely polyisocyanurate foam.
It's probably true that if it's perfectly sealed it would not get wet, but in a place unavailable for inspection for years, why take the chance?
The "do over" isn't insignificant either !

The crumbly yellow stuff is actually "poured in" 2 part closed or open cell polyurethane insulation. It was pretty much the "go to" stuff back in the day . Once it starts to look like that it has no R value at all , its just a filler !

I have pulled out large operating engine drive systems that were over 20 years old with massive holding plates that could not cool down a small box ! They were actually trying to cool the cabin. This makes for a poor air conditioner .

That is how bad this old yellow crumbly stuff is !

[exMaggieDrum]

I’m doing this on my phone so apologies for typos.

I just calculated the cost per sq ft for different layers of insulation types to get R30 assuming 1” of XPS is R5 at my cost of $1.00 / sq ft. EPS - 1”, R6.5, $0.38/sq ft. Cryogel - 30mm is R12 at $7.00/sq ft.

6” XPS R30 - $3.00
2” XPS + 3” EPS R29.5 - $2.14
5” EPS R32.5 - $1.90
4” XPS + 30mm Cryogel R32 - $22.00
80mm Cryogel R31.4 - $56.00
1” XPS + 60mm Cryogel R34 - $43.00

10mm is 1.2” so 80mm = 3.15” so thickness is dramatically less than the others. EPS is only about a two thirds that of XPS. For my box of 40 sq ft, the difference is $1.20 x 40 = $48. That is a rounding error compared to the total cost of the project at a savings of 1” at each wall. Or 2” in any length/width/height less with EPS.

For an 8 cu ft space using 5” of EPS versus 6” of XPS. it is an increase in usable cu ft of 2.6 cu ft. That is a big difference if you need that much space. The R value is 30 for XPS versus 32.5 for 5” of EPS. Or go for 5” total with a combo of EPS and XPS with an R32.5 all EPS versus R29.5 for the combo.

I hope I did the math right. R40 takes 1.3 times the material of R30.

So it boils down to the material difference and your available space and needed space. Cost is not the driver. Putting 1” of XPS on either side of 3” of EPS properly sealed might be a good combo for some. You get the water barrier of the XPS where you would most likely have water penetration. If I need that extra room I might go that way.

[exMaggieDrum]

I see an error on the XPS Cryogel combo. It should have been 2” of XPS not 1”.

[john61ct]

Menards carries a polyiso, Johns Manville ValuTherm, rather than foil it's fiberglass faced, and on both sides, 4" R23.6

I like the idea of XPS for the first interior inch, maybe a vapor barrier between the two as well as an innermost one?

Could someone outline a HowTo on the vapor barrier(s), links to example materials?

What is a good innermost liner, say you have charters with drunk teens, want something robust?

[Typhoon]

Oh yes and one more thing , remember you are not keeping the in the cold.....you are keeping the heat out !
Delta T is Delta T, and it works on the top, sides, and bottom the same way . I see it all the time, people build highly insulated boxes and a large lid the has one inch of blue board in it . Then they wonder why they are not getting low power usage . People think the cold only goes out the bottom , no no.... heat gets in all around equally . As the Delta T is the same on the top as it is on the bottom .

FIX YOUR DOORS! is usually the cure .

Regards John.

[Typhoon]

Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum

I’m doing this on my phone so apologies for typos.

I just calculated the cost per sq ft for different layers of insulation types to get R30 assuming 1” of XPS is R5 at my cost of $1.00 / sq ft. EPS - 1”, R6.5, $0.38/sq ft. Cryogel - 30mm is R12 at $7.00/sq ft.

6” XPS R30 - $3.00
2” XPS + 3” EPS R29.5 - $2.14
5” EPS R32.5 - $1.90
4” XPS + 30mm Cryogel R32 - $22.00
80mm Cryogel R31.4 - $56.00
1” XPS + 60mm Cryogel R34 - $43.00

10mm is 1.2” so 80mm = 3.15” so thickness is dramatically less than the others. EPS is only about a two thirds that of XPS. For my box of 40 sq ft, the difference is $1.20 x 40 = $48. That is a rounding error compared to the total cost of the project at a savings of 1” at each wall. Or 2” in any length/width/height less with EPS.

For an 8 cu ft space using 5” of EPS versus 6” of XPS. it is an increase in usable cu ft of 2.6 cu ft. That is a big difference if you need that much space. The R value is 30 for XPS versus 32.5 for 5” of EPS. Or go for 5” total with a combo of EPS and XPS with an R32.5 all EPS versus R29.5 for the combo.

I hope I did the math right. R40 takes 1.3 times the material of R30.

So it boils down to the material difference and your available space and needed space. Cost is not the driver. Putting 1” of XPS on either side of 3” of EPS properly sealed might be a good combo for some. You get the water barrier of the XPS where you would most likely have water penetration. If I need that extra room I might go that way.

Keep EPS out of your box , it loves moisture and breathes .

Regards John.

[senormechanico]

My house has 1" Thermax insulation panels on the outside and inside of steel studs.
The studs are filled with R11 fiberglass. Sheathing, siding, sheet rock etc.
The remodeling we did involved a bit of removal of siding and wall, thus the discovery of the Thermax. The interior of those panels is "yellow crumbly stuff.
It's different from poured in foam, but still yellow and crumbly.

[exMaggieDrum]

So - the demo is started and almost finished. You know you are in trouble when you bring a Sawsall to a boat project. The existing boxes were in much worse shape than I even could have imagined. See pic below.

All the wood is damp and some more than just a little damp. And mildew of course. It is a good project to do but nasty. I found out that the counter top actually extends under the nav station cabinetry and is actually the base for the nav desk top. So I can't really take it out which means all the work has to be done through the existing doors.

I would prefer to keep the openings and doors on the top because they are beautifully profiled and I would have a hard time duplicating them. But the mildew plywood under the top goes right to them. I couldn't get a wrench or anything on one bolt holding the top hung cold plate so I got out my hacksaw and then the Sawsall but even with a long metal blade I couldn't reach it.

So I reluctantly decided to hack off a piece of one opening at the bottom so I could get access to the bolt and I found that the profiles for the openings is actually 1-2" thick teak - nice teak. So I quit doing that. I'll put the piece back in later and cover all with glass and epoxy. You can see the cutout at the top left of the demo pic.

The bad news, if that isn't enough, is that the corners of the boxes are 3x4 solid built wood so no insulation there and I don't see how to insulate them as they are part of the construction holding up the counter top. I have to do some more thinking on that part.

I am now doing scale drawings to determine what schedule of insulation layers I need to get R30 in the reefer and R40 in the freezer. It will certainly require some Cryogel due to lack of space in some dimensions. Using the EPS won't solve these issues. And I really am reluctant to use it anyway. It is going to be touch and go on getting a new cold plate in the freezer and still make the R40. Just too narrow. I have plenty of cubic feet of space.

I now have a working Sea Frost SA2 air-cooled compressor unit and two Sea Frost cold plates I want to recycle if anyone is nearby and could use them.

[Typhoon]

Bravo !!

This is a job every older boat owner with any real off shore aspirations needs to do, it really is one of the most important upgrades you can do !

Nothing worse then having your refrigeration system empty your batteries every day.

What you found inside your box is typical , rot and mold. Did you find any vapor barrier? I think not . And how do you like what is left of that yellow foam insulation, no R value at all .

I think Rich has different sizes of plates, maybe he can custom make you one to fit your box , we do .

We hope to do a little test on XPS and Polyiso insulation in the real world of a fridge when we get back from the Annapolis show , count on the results a week after the show. This may be helpful in your insulation choices .

I have still not heard back from Aspen Aerogel with my inquiry but will post there response as soon as I get one

Regards John.