Do I need a new stove?

[MJH]

Originally Posted by DanielI

Or, how a $1 part turned into a $1500 job

PO installed a LPG cabin heater, which I didn’t like because of safety concerns about the flame, but also, it was teed off the stove connection. We decided to pull it and remove the tee, directly hooking the gas line to the stove, as per regs.

It didn’t fit.

No problem, we figured the gas line is old anyway and about due for replacing. But first I just tried another fitting, just to see if it would go on the stove.

No luck.

So now we’re searching for a replacement part for the stove. And we discover that this old model, a Hillerange which I suspect is original (1989), does not have thermocouples. I don’t know if we can still get parts for it, but all the information online suggests that this is a real safety issue, and the stove ought to be replaced.

On the other hand, looking at sailboat listings, it looks to me like there are an awful lot of these old stoves still in use.

So, what I’m wondering is, do I really need a new stove?

The previous owner did not do a proper job on the installation and you were right to correct it. Continue to follow through trying to obtain the correct part (new or used). If it is unobtainable bight the bullet and get a better unit (it doesn't have to be new) and install it properly. Propane is no place to take shortcuts.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[chasfgr]

Originally Posted by Benz

You don't LIGHT the lighter--you just squeeze the paddle to release some gas.

Now why would you be any safer with squirting some gas into your boat?


I have a set of 4 bilge-mounted receptors, connected up to an always-on alarm (when the boat electrics are on).


Usually, any leak is outside the saloon close to the gas locker and my nose has, so far, warned me before the alarm.
The alarm automatically self-tests, whenever the batteries are switched on.
I do change all the flexible hoses regularly (10-year intervals) and I've found that the "soapy water" test is far less sensitive than my nose.
Abandoning smoking was the most significant improvement, to health, wealth and safety.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by chasfgr

Now why would you be any safer with squirting some gas into your boat?


I have a set of 4 bilge-mounted receptors, connected up to an always-on alarm (when the boat electrics are on).


Usually, any leak is outside the saloon close to the gas locker and my nose has, so far, warned me before the alarm.
The alarm automatically self-tests, whenever the batteries are switched on.
I do change all the flexible hoses regularly (10-year intervals) and I've found that the "soapy water" test is far less sensitive than my nose.
Abandoning smoking was the most significant improvement, to health, wealth and safety.

You squirt in a tiny amount in under the nose of the detector to make sure it's working. It's a TEST.
Perhaps not every alarm self-tests; perhaps the poster feels more comfortable with a real-gas test than a self diagnostic of the detector--either way, there's no danger in releasing a tiny amount of butane into the boat one time.

[tkeithlu]

John33, when gonesail suggested testing a propane detector with a butane lighter, I interpreted him as meaning without the lighter lit, producing a stream of gas to determine that the detector was detecting. That works and is convenient. Doing it with the lighter lit would not test the detector, and as you suggest might result in an up-lifting moment.

[Pegu Club]

Originally Posted by hamburking

Another vote for ORIGO stove. These things are great, safe, simple, and last forever. Fuel is cheap (where I live) at any hardware store.

So of course they stopped making them.

Exactly, Dometic purchased Origo and then stopped production claiming some safety concern, but not saying what that was, because as we all know the last forty plus years of production with no issues that anyone has ever read or heard about in the boating world certainly says BS on Dometic supposed reasoning. They just bought the competition and closed it down. It’s a shame because they were very affordable, super safe, have hardly any moving parts, and last for decades. Although most of those attributes are exactly what corporations truly disdain.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by DanielI

Or, how a $1 part turned into a $1500 job

PO installed a LPG cabin heater, which I didn’t like because of safety concerns about the flame, but also, it was teed off the stove connection. We decided to pull it and remove the tee, directly hooking the gas line to the stove, as per regs.

It didn’t fit.

No problem, we figured the gas line is old anyway and about due for replacing. But first I just tried another fitting, just to see if it would go on the stove.

No luck.

So now we’re searching for a replacement part for the stove. And we discover that this old model, a Hillerange which I suspect is original (1989), does not have thermocouples. I don’t know if we can still get parts for it, but all the information online suggests that this is a real safety issue, and the stove ought to be replaced.

On the other hand, looking at sailboat listings, it looks to me like there are an awful lot of these old stoves still in use.

So, what I’m wondering is, do I really need a new stove?

I think getting the thermocouple is a good idea, especially if you plan to take the boat somewhere cold enough to need the heater for long times, for instance, when it is freezing or lower outside, you might want to turn it on around 4 a.m., and then go back to sleep, or use it under way, where you could not keep an eye on it.

However, if you live in southern California, or only sail in one season, the warm one, maybe you don't even need a heater?

I guess, first you have to decide how important the safety issue is for you. For us, we have a diesel heater, and we don't use it ever unless we're here to keep an eye on it. A big downdraft gave us a fireball below decks one time, and although it burnt itself out without doing any damage, I surely didn't like that one bit! Not a great fan of gas sniffers, having had two commit suicide, but definitely think the thermocouples are a good idea.

Ann

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by Cpt Mark

Your Hillrange stove does have thermocouples built into it, at least mine did. Those were very well made stoves and you can get all kinds of advice and part from https://www.suremarineservice.com/
These guys bought out the parts inventory and are the experts on these stoves. I thought my thermocouples had gone bad and they said nope. Probably your knobs are hitting the metal face and not going in all the way? Say what?... Take the knob off, press in with a tool, finger and see if it works. If so, that's the problem. Just wad up a bit of tin foil and shove in so it spaces the knob out a bit. Voila, works perfectly and no charge for the advice.
I'm eliminating all propane from my boat by having a large enough My stove/oven is for sale
LiFePo4 battery bank.

My original Hillerange, 1985 vintage did not have thermocoupler safety cutoff so it is very likely that the OP is correct. It's 2005 replacement did have the thermocoupler shutoff. My home cooktop, 1995 vintage did not have thermocoupler safety cutoff either. So my guess is that sometime between 1995 and 2005 the law was changed requiring the safety.

[DanielI]

Thanks for all the responses.

Originally Posted by Jammer

You will have to decide whether the lessons learned about stove safety in the last 32 years are ones that you want to take on board.

I understand, but looking at it in terms of years is not the critical point, after all, the rest of my boat doesn’t include all the advances of the last 32 years, and I’m not particularly concerned. I’m not sure when thermocouples became standard (required?), but it seems like that is the safety improvement I need to decide the value of.

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

First and foremost, even if you replace it, get a gas detector and mount it at the floor near the stove. They are not expensive, and given that propane accumulates in the bottom of your hull before going BOOM should be considered an essential safety item.

That is already on our shopping list. I was thinking of two detectors, one at the stove, and one in the aft berth. Our propane tank is in a proper propane locker, but if the venting would fail, the cockpit lazarette it sits in is not well sealed off from the cabin.

Originally Posted by Pete7

Quite Ours is a similar age and we are going to replace it, but in Europe it will be a Voyager 4500 probably and made in the UK.

There are some things I would take a risk on and buy the cheap version or second hand, but a gas cooker I am willing to find the £460 for a new one.

Wow, that looks like a nice stove, but UK only. Any idea why stoves in the UK look to be about half the price of US?

Originally Posted by Cpt Mark

Your Hillrange stove does have thermocouples built into it, at least mine did.
…
I'm eliminating all propane from my boat by having a large enough My stove/oven is for sale LiFePo4 battery bank.

I’m sure there are not thermocouples. I think they introduced them in a later model.

Electric sounds good in theory, but I have a single 100W solar panel, I can’t imagine I could power it.

[DanielI]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

I think getting the thermocouple is a good idea, especially if you plan to take the boat somewhere cold enough to need the heater for long times…

For us, we have a diesel heater, and we don't use it ever unless we're here to keep an eye on it.

Just to clarify: we didn’t want the heater, and I already removed it. The only question about the heater is whether it is safe enough to sell in good conscience, or if I need to throw it out.

The lack of thermocouples is a question regarding the stove. If I was going to to put in a heater, I think I’d want one of those Webasto style units that keeps the combustion isolated from the cabin air. But we definitely would not use it enough to justify the cost.

BTW, when you replied with a changed title for my post, somehow my original post changed titles as well. Anyone able to explain that? It really freaked me out when I saw my post with a title I know I didn’t put on it!

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by DanielI

Just to clarify: we didn’t want the heater, and I already removed it. The only question about the heater is whether it is safe enough to sell in good conscience, or if I need to throw it out.

The lack of thermocouples is a question regarding the stove. If I was going to to put in a heater, I think I’d want one of those Webasto style units that keeps the combustion isolated from the cabin air. But we definitely would not use it enough to justify the cost.

BTW, when you replied with a changed title for my post, somehow my original post changed titles as well. Anyone able to explain that? It really freaked me out when I saw my post with a title I know I didn’t put on it!

What kind of heater is it? Can you post a picture?

[DanielI]

Originally Posted by stormalong

What kind of heater is it? Can you post a picture?

The heater I removed is a Force 10 Cozy Cabin 1000. I just checked the manual, and it indicates the heater does have thermocouples and piezoelectric ignition. My concern about the safety is because there appears to be nothing blocking finger access to the flame. I have never used it but PO assures me it works.

Are you interested in buying, or offering advice? Either is welcome. I will post pictures in the classifieds if I decide to sell, but I can PM pictures if helpful.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by DanielI

Just to clarify: we didn’t want the heater, and I already removed it. The only question about the heater is whether it is safe enough to sell in good conscience, or if I need to throw it out.

The lack of thermocouples is a question regarding the stove. If I was going to to put in a heater, I think I’d want one of those Webasto style units that keeps the combustion isolated from the cabin air. But we definitely would not use it enough to justify the cost.

BTW, when you replied with a changed title for my post, somehow my original post changed titles as well. Anyone able to explain that? It really freaked me out when I saw my post with a title I know I didn’t put on it!

That was me, and I can take it out, if you'd like, no problem. It was that folks were giving you advice about cook stoves, and i thought, let's clear up the confusion. I apologize for freaking you out, and glad to change it back if you like.

I wouldn't sell it on. If you decide to, I'd make sure the buyer understood the risks. If the buyer lives in an area where gas installations are checked for insurance or safety purposes, they'd never get an okay to use it, or using it would nullify their insurance; and careless use could lead to explosion--one would not want that on one's conscience.

Ann

[DanielI]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

That was me, and I can take it out, if you'd like, no problem. It was that folks were giving you advice about cook stoves, and i thought, let's clear up the confusion. I apologize for freaking you out, and glad to change it back if you like.

Thanks, please do change it. I was being a little facetious, although, in this context, the word “gaslighting” did seem appropriate!

It was stove advice I was looking for. We didn’t want the heater for other reasons (hitting my feet while napping on the settee). Someone suggested upthread that selling the stove may be illegal.

[JPA Cate]

^^^^^

I don't think selling it is illegal. Installing it may be.

Ann

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by DanielI

The heater I removed is a Force 10 Cozy Cabin 1000. I just checked the manual, and it indicates the heater does have thermocouples and piezoelectric ignition. My concern about the safety is because there appears to be nothing blocking finger access to the flame. I have never used it but PO assures me it works.

Are you interested in buying, or offering advice? Either is welcome. I will post pictures in the classifieds if I decide to sell, but I can PM pictures if helpful.

I have the same cozy cabin heater in my boat. It was actually the first thing I bought after closing on the boat (October, 1990). The piezo igniter died at least two decades ago, I use a barbecue lighter to start it. It can supply quite a bit of heat but goes through propane very fast. These heaters are very reliable. The gas jet on mine tends to clog about once a year - a 10 minute fix. They have an oxygen depletion shutoff. I do not know how it works but I get to blame it once in a while for unknown shutdowns.

Other than the amount of propane they consume they are great heaters. Inexpensive and reliable. If I didn't already own one I would be interested in yours.