Encapsulated = invulnerable ??

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Pegu Club

Sooo, in a moment of monumental newbie stupidity, we ran into the Reedy Island dike at five plus knots, this is an under water dike, several miles long in Delaware bay, it is meant to help keep the traffic lanes from silting in, it has been there for something around ninety plus years. This happened in our first month of our first trip to the Bahamas... three years ago... to but it bluntly we came to a complete halt, instantly, this little incident put a bit of a dent in the leading edge of our “fully encapsulated keel” ,luckily for us the damage was far less than I imagined it would be, any way we had the damage repaired, and were on our way three days later. I’m thinking that if we had a bolt on keel we wouldn’t have been able to continue on with our journey so promptly as it were...

Not one of our proudest moments, but we learned from our error shall we say...

As an aside, the tech at the marina told us that around seven boats hit that dike annually, and a large Nordhausen trawler sank hitting it the previous year...

Fair winds,

With my long molded keel on the Passport 47 I hit very hard 3 times in the life of the deep draft boat. No damage other than a scrape on the keel. I'm talking 5+ knots to a dead stop.
A Catalina 42 I managed in charter hit a rock in Puget Sound at the same speed. The boat suffered ~21K damage (2004 $) broken engine bed, broken interior cabinetry.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Pegu Club

I’m thinking that if we had a bolt on keel we wouldn’t have been able to continue on with our journey so promptly as it were...

Perhaps, perhaps not, here is a bolt on fin hitting a wall, repeatedly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIgl...einzBurmeister

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

With my long molded keel on the Passport 47 I hit very hard 3 times in the life of the deep draft boat. No damage other than a scrape on the keel. I'm talking 5+ knots to a dead stop.
A Catalina 42 I managed in charter hit a rock in Puget Sound at the same speed. The boat suffered ~21K damage (2004 $) broken engine bed, broken interior cabinetry.

Note to self: don’t let Cheechako navigate! [emoji16]

[Don C L]

Hey, I have a ton of confidence in my old long keel in a hard grounding, but that is not what the article Jim cited was talking about. The design "flaw" or weakness is that any puncturing of the keel behind that section that is capped is a puncturing of the hull itself.

[Jim Cate]

You are not sure what the marque is? (Am I the one that has got his wires crossed?)

coopec, thanks for a valid criticism of my post. I think the picture of the damage distracted me from that sentence.

Jim

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

Note to self: don’t let Cheechako navigate! [emoji16]

True, but you should have him on board, after all think of the experience and knowledge he has of what to do next

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

Note to self: don’t let Cheechako navigate! [emoji16]

Got me!
Actually, the problem was I had the Passport 47 rated at 6-5 draft. I loaded it about 4" more and was sailing Florida and the Bahamas! DUH!

Grounding #1: Outside a marina in the ICW, the marina told me to swing wide on the far side of the ICW , sharp turn and come straight in (hi tide access only). Swinging wide, just before turning BAM! I hit a sunken boat! When I got in, the guy said "oh yeah there's a wreck there!"

Grounding #2: In the Bahamas, we sailed most of the day and were following in our buddy boat through a narrow entrance to an anchorage. Rock bottom, fast current. We only drew about 5-6" more than them so were barreling through the cut with the current to get anchored before dark. BAM!
We bounced hard, then a couple smaller bounces and got in.

#3: Florida. The bottom is a lot harder in some places than you might think. There is one spot near the stadium with solid hard sand. A small spot really. We were following our gps track out in the morning and... Bam, bump, bump. Hard aground. Go figure.

Catalina damage: I wasn't on the boat! I swear!

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Years ago, early 2000's I think, there was a brand new production design, was it Ericson? that the bolt on keel fell off of in the Gulf of Mexico.

Just had a quick look and I can only find reference to one yacht in the Gulf of Mexico losing a keel.

Keel failures prompt call for oversight

Soundings Editors Updated:Jun 16, 2017Original:Oct 1, 2008

https://www.soundingsonline.com/news...or-oversight-2


My keel (Roberts 43) doesn't have ballast in the aft compartment. I have a lid over it but that is only to stop spanners and fastenings falling down. I'll have to "beef" that up significantly

[mike d.]

As an owner of the same boat, let me see if I can explain the construct of the keel ! The 6800 lbs of ballast is glassed in forward in the keel cavity under the mast step, and under the water tank">fresh water tank ! So basically, the lead goes to about 1/2 way to the galley island, then tapers down to the keel sump ! The end of the sump is what got damaged, by the chain Robert was referring to ! The ballast was not compromised ! To say that an encapsulated keel of this design is inferior I find quite difficult to comprehend ! As Robert said he had trouble getting the boat moored in the conditions he was experiencing, as most people would ! How do you blame the mfg for something they have no control over ! There is no such thing as a perfect design, or mfg process ! Everything is a compromise ! There is not a boat designed or built other than maybe steel that would have survived the same condition !

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by mike d.

There is not a boat designed or built other than maybe steel that would have survived the same condition !

Pretty much any boat would have suffered damage in this situation, yes. But if the keel were designed at least half-decently, it would *not* have led to a flooding event.

[wingssail]

Two examples of damage.

Photo 1 & 2, Westsail 42 with encapsulated ballast, hit a rock.

Photo 3, Different scenario, bolt-on keel hit by moving steel structure on the back of the keel.

More: I have no photos of either of two other cases where a fin keel race boat (one mine, the other one which I was commanding) hit rocks near the bottom of their bolt-on keels while travelling at speed (over seven knots). Both boats suffered damage on the keel, easily repaired and on one boat there was no other damage. The second one had cracking (but no water engress) on the hull structure aft of the keel and required fiberglass repair.

So I think it is incorrect to say that hitting rocks with bolt-on keels will always result in sinking or torn off keels, and also that having a chain drag around the back of a bolt on fin keel will result in major damage. The photos here don't demonstrate that.

I join Chotu with a bad record.

[sailorboy1]

Bolt on keels don’t just fall off and encapsulated ones don’t suddenly start leaking. Boat owners cause those things mostly.

[Hoodsail]

Jim, thnks for the post and ensuing discussion. Since folks are fessing up about testing their boats structural integrity I will do so too..About two years ago my oldest son and I were motoring out of Cuttyhunk harbor (one of the Elizabeth islands in Rhode Is) for the 1st time. We draw 3'10" so I usually feel pretty confident (smug) that our Bristol 35.5 can safely get in/out of some skinny water. Well....at the mouth of the channel there is a sign, acouple feet above water level, about 6ft from our starboard side that noted "caution-shallow water". We were motoring about 4-5 knots when the boat rose up out of the water! I heard this horrendous sound like rocks dragging across our hull, we slowed a bit, and what seemed like an eternity, but would estimate it was a matter of a few seconds, she was back "in the water", horrendous sound stopped, and the sign was astern of us...I couldnt hear anything over the names i was calling the skipper (me)/the monosyllabic words i was spewing! My hands shaking and heart pounding...
Yelled for my son to take the helm. I took one step and jumped to the cabin sole! searching for water. Madly pulled up both inspection hatches on cabin sole and found no water..Ran forward and threw aside cushions to access panel so I could inspect the hull near my depth sensor forward of the keel, fearing i had torqued the keel free of the hull...no water!..took my pulse! Put the interior back together slowly and checked periodically for water as we sailed to Block Island.
Sailed home from Block acouple of days later. Once on the hard for the end of the season I took the pictures attached. Thank goodness she is a Bristol! And that I have an encapsulated keel all 6000 lbs of it.

[Hoodsail]

Still attempting to get pictures to attach.

[DomPerignon]

Good old one piece steel boats. Indestructible.