Epoxy Fume Inhalation And Air Filtration

[Locquatious]

Epoxy manufacturers have done much to reduce the amount of residual epichlorohydrin (a compound which adds the epoxy reactive group to the polymer chain during epoxy synthesis) in epoxy products over the years. Epichlorohydrin is a probable carcinogen. These days it is usually in the ppm residual amount range in modern epoxies sold by reputable companies.

[Benz]

Another vote for infusion, if you can afford the learning curve and the equipment. It's by far the least amount of waste, since you're not using endless mixing tubs/gloves/stirrers/suits. If you're open laminating, then you're either going through rolls of peel-ply or doing a lot of sanding; if you're vaccuum-bagging, then your're using all that and all the gloves/suits/stirrers, etc.
Epoxy is good for winter because you can laminate all day in the cold with a thinner resin like Pro-set 125, then cover the piece with blankets and put space heaters under to ensure you can work next day. If you try to do poly or vinylester in the cold it tends to run out of the laminate before it can kick--very frustrating. Of course, you don't need the same sort of ventilation for those, so you can keep the shop nice and hot and just abide the smell, which isn't harmful, just stinky.
You can also infuse vinylester, which would be my first choice for a boat hull anyway.

[DMCantor]

I use an epoxy made by a company called MAS. It has virtually zero VOCs. I am not worried at all about using it in my basement. Another advantage is that it doesn't have any amine blush. Great for stitch&glue construction.

[Chotu]

I also used MAS for my infusions. It’s a very high quality epoxy with a price tag to match. But they were one of the only ones in the infusion game back then.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Benz

Another vote for infusion, if you can afford the learning curve and the equipment. It's by far the least amount of waste, since you're not using endless mixing tubs/gloves/stirrers/suits. If you're open laminating, then you're either going through rolls of peel-ply or doing a lot of sanding; if you're vaccuum-bagging, then your're using all that and all the gloves/suits/stirrers, etc.
Epoxy is good for winter because you can laminate all day in the cold with a thinner resin like Pro-set 125, then cover the piece with blankets and put space heaters under to ensure you can work next day. If you try to do poly or vinylester in the cold it tends to run out of the laminate before it can kick--very frustrating. Of course, you don't need the same sort of ventilation for those, so you can keep the shop nice and hot and just abide the smell, which isn't harmful, just stinky.
You can also infuse vinylester, which would be my first choice for a boat hull anyway.

Why vinylester over epoxy?
I mean- my 1987 hull is built with vinylester so I’m a fan.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Why vinylester over epoxy?
I mean- my 1987 hull is built with vinylester so I’m a fan.

Several reasons: cost is one, though who knows how long VE will be cheaper than Epoxy. Right now I can't afford either.
Another is secondary building. After you have a hull, you have to glass in bulkheads, decks, and other structure, and it's far easier to do that with VE or polyester than epoxy. Materials wet out easier, you don't have to grind or use peel-ply if you stop for the day and come back, and you run no risk of developing amine allergies. Cleanup is easier, and you can use the same brush for months on end as long as you keep washing it in acetone.
Mixing is easier and quicker, since you don't have to weigh the resins, and the graduated squeezy-bottles for MEKP are pretty foolproof.
Another is that having a Vinylester hull, you can finish out the project in polyester, which is cheaper and perfectly suited to the task. My Cape George is only Vinylester in the outer skins, but the bulk of the laminate is polyester, and I did all the decks and bulkheads in that.
All in all, while epoxy may be stronger, and is suited to things closer to the cutting edge than I want to go, the fiberglass cruising boat needs nothing fancier than VE.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Benz

Several reasons: cost is one, though who knows how long VE will be cheaper than Epoxy. Right now I can't afford either.
Another is secondary building. After you have a hull, you have to glass in bulkheads, decks, and other structure, and it's far easier to do that with VE or polyester than epoxy. Materials wet out easier, you don't have to grind or use peel-ply if you stop for the day and come back, and you run no risk of developing amine allergies. Cleanup is easier, and you can use the same brush for months on end as long as you keep washing it in acetone.
Mixing is easier and quicker, since you don't have to weigh the resins, and the graduated squeezy-bottles for MEKP are pretty foolproof.
Another is that having a Vinylester hull, you can finish out the project in polyester, which is cheaper and perfectly suited to the task. My Cape George is only Vinylester in the outer skins, but the bulk of the laminate is polyester, and I did all the decks and bulkheads in that.
All in all, while epoxy may be stronger, and is suited to things closer to the cutting edge than I want to go, the fiberglass cruising boat needs nothing fancier than VE.

I completely concur with this. All facts.

I’ve found vinylester to be quite expensive lately, but it’s the best resin for building. Can shave a significant amount of time off the build too.

Note: I used epoxy for the build just listening to the internet. Didn’t know any better at the time. I’ve done most of the add on or finish out stuff that’s not related to the hull in the ‘esters

[catsketcher]

Don't think that all epoxies are the same. I built a 38ft tri using ADR 246 from ATL. I got a little sick afterwards. We did a lot of vacu bagging which is halfway to infusion but it was very low viscosity and my wife said it made me smell funny.

I prefer West 105 but I would spend serious time getting to know a range of resins. if I was you I use a cheap one that has smelly hardener but I could keep on trying new ones till those amines don't get aerosolised. I find the amines have a urine/ammonia type smell (they are Nitrogen based compounds) and so researching different epoxies and checking for smelly urine smells is something else you should do.

I couldn't bear to build in a respirator all the time. But I think the most important thing to remember is that silicosis (from grinding and adding fillers to resin) is very important to avoid - use your respirator then.

[zstine]

My only experience with Vinylester was building a 30 gallon diesel tank that my typical epoxy (635 US Composites) was not rated for chemically. I HATED working with Vinylester.

First, when it started to kick in the cup 90% of the mix was fine, but I'd get these 'snot-strings' that made working with it a huge PITA. I tried several methods to stop the snot, but nothing worked. I found I had maybe 5 min before the snot started. I use small batches (~5 oz) and the drop method for adding MEKP (4 drop to an oz) and mixed well, still snot in 5min. Epoxy goes off predictably and just starts to get thicker homogeneously. You can pour the cup out and still work with it for a while.. much easier in my experience.

Second, is that even though I don't do much glass work, I can buy epoxy by the multi-gallon bulk and it will be fine on the shelf for years. Vinylester has a short shelf life, which may not be a big issue with a full boat build, but certainly sucks for the occasional repair and project work that comes along.

VE stinks! I built that diesel tank in the basement during winter and the wife was not happy that her house smelled!

You can clean epoxy off tools too (vinegar works and much less harmful than acetone), so I don't get the point about that... Though I do use disposable chip brushes.

I will grant you that esters w/o wax can be laminated over days/weeks later and you still get a chemical bond, vice having to prep and mechanically bond epoxy. That's definitely a nice quality!

As for the comment that there's less waste doing infusion compared to hand lay-up... well I don't buy that. Mixing buckets are required either way and are reusable either way. PPE is all reusable save gloves. With infusion you need a bag, breather cloth, peel-ply, and supply hose(s) that all are disposed of as waste (right? can you reuse breather cloth and/or peel-ply or tubing or...? i think no..?). With a hand layup the only thing I dispose of is a chip brush and gloves, maybe a roller if used. squeegees, mixing containers, etc. are all reusable at least several times. I find if you allow the resin to harden in tupperware, it pulls out pretty easy.

Anyway, I like the idea of infusion b/c the quality of the final product and the fact that I can do it myself on large (hull) layups, where I can't layup and vacuum bag that b/c I don't have the time without getting a bunch of helpers.. My retirement boat will most certainly be a light, foam core construction and reducing resin content is important. Similar to Chotu's light Cat, I'm looking at building a fast Trimaran. I don't care much about the weight of my test boat, but it's a learning project so...

[nortonscove]

In the time I have spent in building boats in polyester we were always advised by the workplace inspectors that due to the compounds being heavier than air the first foot above the floor was most volatile. That was about a decade ago and my work in epoxy is limited and therefore all that I've just written should be treated with the weight of the air.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by nortonscove

In the time I have spent in building boats in polyester we were always advised by the workplace inspectors that due to the compounds being heavier than air the first foot above the floor was most volatile. That was about a decade ago and my work in epoxy is limited and therefore all that I've just written should be treated with the weight of the air.

The difference is polystyrene release when it kicks. There have been accidents where the styrene hugged the ground in confined areas, some fatal. One was in a neighboring plant, about 30 years ago. Four men died. Far greater acute (meaning right now rather than delayed problems) hazard than epoxy.

[taylormobile]

I would forget about activated carbon air filters. Any products on the consumer market are very inefficient (less then 25% efficient). I was involved in the design and manufacture of commercial and industrial carbon filtration equipment and I can tell you that high efficiency carbon air filters (98%+) are highly engineered, expensive products. Even so, activated carbon filtration is in my blood and I love talking about it.

Steve
Catalina 42

[Benz]

Originally Posted by zstine

My only experience with Vinylester was building a 30 gallon diesel tank that my typical epoxy (635 US Composites) was not rated for chemically. I HATED working with Vinylester.

First, when it started to kick in the cup 90% of the mix was fine, but I'd get these 'snot-strings' that made working with it a huge PITA. I tried several methods to stop the snot, but nothing worked. I found I had maybe 5 min before the snot started. I use small batches (~5 oz) and the drop method for adding MEKP (4 drop to an oz) and mixed well, still snot in 5min. Epoxy goes off predictably and just starts to get thicker homogeneously. You can pour the cup out and still work with it for a while.. much easier in my experience.

Second, is that even though I don't do much glass work, I can buy epoxy by the multi-gallon bulk and it will be fine on the shelf for years. Vinylester has a short shelf life, which may not be a big issue with a full boat build, but certainly sucks for the occasional repair and project work that comes along.

VE stinks! I built that diesel tank in the basement during winter and the wife was not happy that her house smelled!

You can clean epoxy off tools too (vinegar works and much less harmful than acetone), so I don't get the point about that... Though I do use disposable chip brushes.

I will grant you that esters w/o wax can be laminated over days/weeks later and you still get a chemical bond, vice having to prep and mechanically bond epoxy. That's definitely a nice quality!

As for the comment that there's less waste doing infusion compared to hand lay-up... well I don't buy that. Mixing buckets are required either way and are reusable either way. PPE is all reusable save gloves. With infusion you need a bag, breather cloth, peel-ply, and supply hose(s) that all are disposed of as waste (right? can you reuse breather cloth and/or peel-ply or tubing or...? i think no..?). With a hand layup the only thing I dispose of is a chip brush and gloves, maybe a roller if used. squeegees, mixing containers, etc. are all reusable at least several times. I find if you allow the resin to harden in tupperware, it pulls out pretty easy.

Anyway, I like the idea of infusion b/c the quality of the final product and the fact that I can do it myself on large (hull) layups, where I can't layup and vacuum bag that b/c I don't have the time without getting a bunch of helpers.. My retirement boat will most certainly be a light, foam core construction and reducing resin content is important. Similar to Chotu's light Cat, I'm looking at building a fast Trimaran. I don't care much about the weight of my test boat, but it's a learning project so...

Clearly your mileage varies....
VE gets easier to use with practice, but I do understand the stickiness issue. I just find that I use a lot less incidental material with VE than I do with Epoxy, and I can build something a lot more quickly with VE. Perhaps it's a matter of method. Anyway, a light, fast tri like you want to build is probably best done with epoxy for the ultimate strength:weight ratio. Best of luck with the project.

[Sailorman Ed]

I have only used epoxy and originally cleaned with acetone, then vinegar and now hardly clean at all. I used cheap chip brushes and when done, pump 1-5 pumps of resin ONLY into my working container, swish the brush around to dilute the hardener and set aside until needed ( this will easy last overnight and longer if you set in the fridge). Remember how many pumps you add so you can add the corect number of hardener the next time! I also usually cover the layup with heavy PE film. It keeps the vertical flow to a min, I wet out the glass on the PE and easy and less messy to apply and leaves a smooth surface. Peels off readily when cured. I found the Frigo shredded parmesan cheese containers to be an excellent size. Also keep a container with vinegar handy and drop the flexible spreaders into in when done. CoolWhip containers are also good.

May not be useful for doing a whole boat but good tips for smaller jobs.

[tkalfaoglu]

Could any of these compounds' toxicity continue after they dry out?
I mean, could a finished boat make you ill provided you live in it full-time?
If so, perhaps a metal hull is healthier for us!