Foam-Cored Hulls!

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

So, a badly designed or badly built cored hull is no good. Gee, that's a surprise! Now, who's gonna be the first to write that a badly designed or badly built non-cored hull is good? Or is everyone gonna agree with me that those are no good either?

I think there's a very clear difference. You could have a great cored hull and poorly installed thru hulls, and you end up with garbage. That would never happen on my boat.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

IMO, cored hulls got nothing to do with shooting apples on peoples heads; if they are build or designed bad, it's just that: bad, but if they are designed and build good, they are far superior to "solid glass" hulls.

I'd love to see your facts on this statement as my experience is exactly the opposite. Unfortunately if longevity is a measurement, this clearly isn't the case from any point of view. Look how many solid glass boats built in the '60's are still sailing today. Look at how many cored boats are stuck on broker docks because of delamination issues. This is merely an observation. The technical stuff is on Pascal's website. TPI is the exception to a very sad rule.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

This whole issue is mostly watering hole talk

Really? This website is the best on the internet as a resource on boats and sailing. When folks ask a question they reap the experience of those replying. I've reread your post and just can't figure it out.

[s/v Jedi]

I think there's a very clear difference. You could have a great cored hull and poorly installed thru hulls, and you end up with garbage. That would never happen on my boat.

Indeed, but same is true for poorly installed thru hulls in non cored or aluminium hulls etc. If you mean that it is easier to pop a fitting in a non cored hull, I agree but it isn't about easier, quicker or cheaper; we're talking about which is better and/or longer lasting. Thru hulls in cored hulls should not be in a cored section. If they are installed later, the core is removed and replaced with a solid glass + resin plug. Everyone knows how to do that and the result is not worse than for a non cored boat? I really don't understand your problem with thru-hulls in cored hulls.... it's a non-issue and it's easy to mess up any boat with stupid modifications.

I'd love to see your facts on this statement as my experience is exactly the opposite. Unfortunately if longevity is a measurement, this clearly isn't the case from any point of view. Look how many solid glass boats built in the '60's are still sailing today.

Sure. How many cored hulls were build in the 60's compared to the number of non cored hulls? Also, those thick solid hulls aren't really good or strong... they are in fact weaker and heavier than the wooden construction in those years. But sure, plastic lasts long so they are still around. But don't think for a minute that they could withstand 10 minutes of what an open 60 racer does. I sailed on some '60s oldies and the waves traveled through them, they flexed that much.

Look at how many cored boats are stuck on broker docks because of delamination issues. This is merely an observation.

Now it's me asking for your facts... because I never see them... or we visit different breeds of brokers docks ;-)

Pascal's website? is that the surveyor with his war against that motorboat manufacturer?

TPI is the exception to a very sad rule.

There are many many good builders of cored hulls. Every racer is cored and all those builders are good. As light as they build them, the last generation of open 60's had no delamination but structural core failure (they need better/stronger cores but those weigh more...)

When folks ask a question they reap the experience of those replying. I've reread your post and just can't figure it out.

I don't mean that, I mean the solid vs cored discussions. It makes a nice subject at the bar because it'll never get solved. Same for full keel vs fin keel; there will always be people claiming a full keel performs better upwind and the modern designers have it all wrong. I know this for a fact: I'll take an old cored Beneteau First out there where I wouldn't go for a million bucks with a "solid" Irwin (well, for a million I would do stupid things...) Solid glass doesn't equal longevity.

About figuring out: my point of view comes down to this: a good built boat with a cored hull is superior, lighter, faster and stronger than the same design built just as good non cored. I don't care how many cored hulls were build badly or ruined by owners drilling holes in them... you just don't buy them. Talking about which types of glass mats are used in what lay-up with which resin using which method is more important than the core vs solid issue because we only consider boats that are build right. Also: the reason for building cored hulls should be to make better hulls, not cheaper ones. Some builders only care about cheap and build flimsy cored boats... sure I agree with that but why would we want to discuss those? I don't care much for them and it's no valid indication that cored is bad... it's the builder that's bad... why can't you figure that out? ;-) ;-)

So, the picture is a boat many times stronger and faster than your favorite 60's solid glass boat, and if they would keep it nice and safe like those oldies, it would outlast them (but they have different plans for these babies ;-)

cheers,
Nick.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by keelbolts

People used to look at me, with my wooden boat, and say, "boy, whata lotta work you got there." Then I saw my first plastic boat with a rotten deck. I just laughed. Best of both worlds? Rot on the top & blisters on the bottom!

I was once on the hard and looked across the yard at my boat - she's a beauty. She was sitting next to a steel boat and a fiberglass boat &, I swear this is true, I looked over and my wife was pounding cotton into our seams, the steel boat guy was grinding rust, and the FG guy was grinding blisters with a dremmel tool. Side by side. At the same moment. And there I was with no camera!

Moral of the story? Pick your poison. You're going to work on her no matter what she's made of.

Amen...Such a true statement

[MidLandOne]

I have not read every word of yours in this thread Nick, but every one I have read in it I agree with 100%.

In the end, many forumites are pre fins, pre spades, and with solid glass hulls and take some offence at anything that suggests that their own boat's construction is a compromise bettered by more recent ones.

If I ever had another boat built for me my preference would now be, 13 years on from when my current boat was built for me, an advanced construction using foam for a bullet proof hull. It pays to stay with the times unless one is into living in the past .

[sailorboy1]

During the 2 years of boat research I did before making my purchase I of course read all the good/bad contruction and design articles and options. In the end I came to belive none of it mattered as far as to be a consideration for a used/older boat. When you get right down to it on an older boat the orginal contruction method takes a back door to to the current condition. If a 20 year old cored boat has no core problems; how can anyone say the contruction is bad! Now if I was looking at a brand new unproven boat things would be different.

[Joli]

Core materials can have issues. Balsa can rot, foam can fail in shear, foam can disintigrate when wet.......... But there are many good cored boats out there and if there is a problem they can be repaired easily enough. A very famous high dollar yacht builder had to recal several foam boats and recore them, the foam failed in shear. They cut the exterior hull away, recored, reapplied the hull, then faired and painted. Removing all the stick built furniture was not an option.

All in all I would buy a cored boat above most other construction methods.

[keelbolts]

I have a 60 year old wooden boat and a newer plastic boat so I'm not absolutely in either camp now. On one hand, I use epoxy on my wood boat. I figure the guys that built her would have used it if they'd had it. On the other, I believe in many of the older forms and construction methods. They were the product of hundreds, if not thousands, of years of evolutionary response to the oceans' demands. Just because we can do foam filled fin keels doesn't mean the ocean is going to accept them and, in fact, it often doesn't. I wonder how many of our modern designs & techniques issue from economic concerns rather than safety or performance.

[EJC]

Originally Posted by keelbolts

People used to look at me, with my wooden boat, and say, "boy, whata lotta work you got there." Then I saw my first plastic boat with a rotten deck. I just laughed. Best of both worlds? Rot on the top & blisters on the bottom!

I was once on the hard and looked across the yard at my boat - she's a beauty. She was sitting next to a steel boat and a fiberglass boat &, I swear this is true, I looked over and my wife was pounding cotton into our seams, the steel boat guy was grinding rust, and the FG guy was grinding blisters with a dremmel tool. Side by side. At the same moment. And there I was with no camera!

Moral of the story? Pick your poison. You're going to work on her no matter what she's made of.

Moral of my story is I must pick my poison! Am going to NC to look at my choices and choose a qualified surveyor to guide my choice.
Again thank you for all the input, coming out the other side, hopefully I will be fishing and enjoying! This discussion has been quite informative.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I really don't understand your problem with thru-hulls in cored hulls.... it's a non-issue and it's easy to mess up any boat with stupid modifications.

Nick, I don't think we're ever going to agree on this. I've seen serious delamination on a local Wildcat 350 (balsa core catamaran) where the new owner had to remove a good portion of one of the outer hull to repair it. I've also seen it first hand on monohulls. Solid glass hulls just don't have this issue.

If I were buying a racing boat, no problem, foam core is the only way to go. If I want a cruiser, my preference is to sacrifice performance for a non cored hull. Yeah, I agree that they may get bendy as the decades roll by, but they will all be floating. I will agree with you that this is less of an issue with a new build. I maintain it's a serious issue when shopping for a used boat.

Incidentally, fiberglass fatigue over time isn't limited to non cored boats as strength in the glass is lost over time with repetitive movement of the laminate. When the fiberglass strands fatigue, how much strength is in what's basically Styrofoam? Ok, not Styrofoam, but pretty close. Good builders allow for this by making the layups thicker.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Pascal's website? is that the surveyor with his war against that motorboat manufacturer?

Yeah, he's the guy. He was hired to do insurance claims by insurance companies after the 2004 hurricane season which decimated Florida. He was so disturbed by what he saw builders using for core materials in the smashed up boats he was doing claims on that he built a website with photos. As an aside, he must be right, as it's been 5 years and no one sued him or forced him to take the web site down.

[keelbolts]

Good luck & have fun.

[Sahara]

Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

Yeah, he's the guy. He was hired to do insurance claims by insurance companies after the 2004 hurricane season which decimated Florida. He was so disturbed by what he saw builders using for core materials in the smashed up boats he was doing claims on that he built a website with photos. As an aside, he must be right, as it's been 5 years and no one sued him or forced him to take the web site down.

As I recall part of his issue was with motorboat manufacturers using cheap coring materials to try and save money on expensive glass and resin, in other words, using coring to make things cheaper, not better. Some of the core material he showed looked like paper or cardboard.

If a manufacturer is just trying to build the boat cheaper, not better, then it doesn't matter what kind of construction they use, they're just not in it to build good boats. Cored fiberglass construction is used by Alden, Lyman-Morse, Hinckley, Bruckmann, TPI, Goetz, Sabre. These guys are not building cored hulls to make them cheaper, they're doing it to make them better.

But as someone said above, even the best construction does not protect a boat from a silly owner or poor boatyard practices. If someone decides to move a fitting, it has to be done right, or much of the care and effort that went into the original build may be for naught.

When shopping for any boat, cored or not, a good surveyor is your best friend. For a small boat like the Nimble, take along an experienced friend, and first read Don Casey's book "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat".

Nimble Boats Works, Inc. - Home

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

Nick, I don't think we're ever going to agree on this. I've seen serious delamination on a local Wildcat 350 (balsa core catamaran) where the new owner had to remove a good portion of one of the outer hull to repair it. I've also seen it first hand on monohulls. Solid glass hulls just don't have this issue.

Do you really mean that delamination doesn't occur in non cored hulls? (it does)

Incidentally, fiberglass fatigue over time isn't limited to non cored boats as strength in the glass is lost over time with repetitive movement of the laminate. When the fiberglass strands fatigue, how much strength is in what's basically Styrofoam? Ok, not Styrofoam, but pretty close. Good builders allow for this by making the layups thicker.

This isn't what I mean... in the old days, they could NOT make a stiff fiberglass boat without going to a really thick solid layup. New non cored hulls are superior to old non cored hulls. They did not have the right glass mat for it.

Then I come to your styrofoam remarks... these really show you are not serious. So what does a non cored hull have to keep things together after the fiberglass strands fatigue? nothing, right! Do you really think designer count on the core to hold the hull together? I know you don't so you're just trolling me ;-)

So, how about a test: I make a high tech cored panel and you make a solid 60's technology one. Your panel is allowed twice the weight of mine but I have my choice of modern high tech fibers and resin (sure I use epoxy, carbon etc.). Now we think of ways to abuse them until one fails. You are so sure the solid panel will win, how much $$$ would you be willing to bet on that? I think you better don't take that bet!

ciao!
Nick.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

So, how about a test: I make a high tech cored panel and you make a solid 60's technology one. Your panel is allowed twice the weight of mine but I have my choice of modern high tech fibers and resin (sure I use epoxy, carbon etc.). Now we think of ways to abuse them until one fails.

You're on!! One caveat. This discussion is about delamination of cored hulls. That it happens, and how it happens. So.. if you would be kind enough to accelerate the delamination of a cored panel, I'll take that bet !!

All kidding aside. I fully understand the strength of foam cored panels, when they are newly built. My entire outlook has been tainted by what some of them look like '10 years after'.

[Nimble1]

EJC..The Nimble Wanderer is a neat boat. Are you looking at the sail or trawler version?
The Wanderer was one of the last series of boats that Jerry Koch built before his death. The design is by Ted Brewer, a noted sailboat designer and is very unique. Our Nimble Nomad trawler was hull #1 and I believe it was one of the first that they built using the vacuum bagging. By the time the Wanderer was built, they should have had the system pretty well thought out. We have had no problems with the hull on our boat but is is kept on a lift most of the time. They are very unique boats and they always get lots of attention.

[Cheechako]

Yea, as long as the fittings are not put through a cored area, the trailer sailor should be much less of an issue!