Gate Valves - Care and Feeding Thereof

[Jammer]

Two kinds of gate valves out there, rising stem and non-rising stem.


Rising stem ones you can sort of clean and lubricate the portion of the stem that goes through the packing. The ones I have encoutered are not designed to be serviceable but I don't know if that's all of them or not.


Non-rising stem ones there isn't much you can do without disassembling them but the ones I've run into have a bonnet that unscrews from the valve body and then you can pull out the whole mechanism and clean, lubricate, and replace parts as needed. In theory at least, if you can get parts and if you can get the bonnet to turn without cracking the valve or turning the nearby piping into a pretzel.


In my experience they rarely close completely and frequently leak at the packing nut. Ball valves aren't perfect but are a huge improvement.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Luckyknot

. . . A properly designed and cared for gate valve should be no more likely to have issues than a properly designed and cared for ball valve. It's all about selecting the right tool for the job.

ABYC Standard H-27 does not agree with this.

Nor do any of the surveyors I know.

Just try to collect insurance if your boat is sunk by a bad gate valve.


"While suitable for household applications like washing machines and garden hose spigots, gate valves, those that have round handles that are rotated several times to open or close, are not ABYC compliant and they should not be used for raw water applications under any circumstances."
https://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/mag...-waterline.asp

"1- This should be evidence enough of why using a gate valve no longer satisfies marine safety standards. There was no way this valve was ever going to close fully even if the handle had not crumbled away. Seacock valves should always be 1/4 turn ball type or tapered cone type per UL and ABYC standards. European standards also require 1/4 turn valves."
https://marinehowto.com/seacock-thru-hull-primer/

"Gate valves have no place on a boat" -- Pat Manly, Simple Boat Maintenance, 2014.

Nigel Calder says the same thing, emphatically.

Shall I go on? Gate valves violate both ABYC and European standards and should NEVER be used below the waterline.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

ABYC Standard H-27 does not agree with this.

Nor do any of the surveyors I know.

Just try to collect insurance if your boat is sunk by a bad gate valve.


"While suitable for household applications like washing machines and garden hose spigots, gate valves, those that have round handles that are rotated several times to open or close, are not ABYC compliant and they should not be used for raw water applications under any circumstances."
https://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/mag...-waterline.asp



"1- This should be evidence enough of why using a gate valve no longer satisfies marine safety standards. There was no way this valve was ever going to close fully even if the handle had not crumbled away. Seacock valves should always be 1/4 turn ball type or tapered cone type per UL and ABYC standards. European standards also require 1/4 turn valves."
https://marinehowto.com/seacock-thru-hull-primer/

The OP's (in Ontario) surveyor should have condemned those valves to the point where insurance would not have been provided. Unfortunately there are over 240 surveyors in Ontario whose only qualifications are that they had the $25 for business cards

[Luckyknot]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

ABYC Standard H-27 does not agree with this.

Nor do any of the surveyors I know.

Just try to collect insurance if your boat is sunk by a bad gate valve.


"While suitable for household applications like washing machines and garden hose spigots, gate valves, those that have round handles that are rotated several times to open or close, are not ABYC compliant and they should not be used for raw water applications under any circumstances."
https://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/mag...-waterline.asp

I don't disagree with the standard as it applies to the general level of knowledge when it comes to personal craft. I only take exception to the statement, "any vessel." That's a lot of vessels. I would certainly use a proper ball valve with the right trim for small craft. I was simply expanding the conversation a bit because large blanket statements do not hold true in the case of 'all vessels' and 'below the waterline'. I saw a teaching moment.
The more understanding one has about a topic, the better informed their decisions. Not everyone understands the "why" in a lot of standards across many industries. I certainly learn a ton from this forum about all the things I know little about. It makes me feel good though when I can offer up some not so widely known knowledge in return.

Again, I didn't intend to challenge current standards or disrespect your input. I've learned quite a bit from you personally over the years. I just wanted the OP to have a bit more knowledge on the subject so as to avoid fearing the benign and at the same time understanding the "why." It would seem to me that a lot of people have purchased garbage valves over the years intended for light residential use.

Take a look at the incredible list of options to choose from for a 1" Apollo ball valve. The same options exist for various other valves. A gate valve built to the same spec as a ball valve intended for the same use would not have the issues many have experienced. You would only be left with the fundamental differences in the principles of operation. Remember, ball valves have stems too. If you make those stems out of crap material, you'll have the same broken stem issues as a crappy gate valve. If you use a gate valve with a rubber disc, its not going to last very long in such a harsh environment. Get a gate valve with 1/2 stellite trim and no rubber and see if you have the same issues as a hose spigot. I bet you won't. I bet it seats tight every time. But who has time for all that when the method of operation is way too slow for an emergency situation? I agree; nobody.

Bottom line, if you're stuck with a gate valve, make the best of it. As soon as you can, put in a proper ball valve but for goodness sake, don't go to home depot for it. Get one with trim options that will be resilient in marine conditions. If for some reason you can only get gate valves, then do the same thing. Whatever you do though, don't use a globe, needle, or butterfly valve. That s**t's bananas.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Luckyknot

I don't disagree with the standard as it applies to the general level of knowledge when it comes to personal craft. I only take exception to the statement, "any vessel." That's a lot of vessels. I would certainly use a proper ball valve with the right trim for small craft. I was simply expanding the conversation a bit because large blanket statements do not hold true in the case of 'all vessels' and 'below the waterline'. I saw a teaching moment.
The more understanding one has about a topic, the better informed their decisions. Not everyone understands the "why" in a lot of standards across many industries. I certainly learn a ton from this forum about all the things I know little about. It makes me feel good though when I can offer up some not so widely known knowledge in return.

Again, I didn't intend to challenge current standards or disrespect your input. I've learned quite a bit from you personally over the years. I just wanted the OP to have a bit more knowledge on the subject so as to avoid fearing the benign and at the same time understanding the "why." It would seem to me that a lot of people have purchased garbage valves over the years intended for light residential use.

Take a look at the incredible list of options to choose from for a 1" Apollo ball valve. The same options exist for various other valves. A gate valve built to the same spec as a ball valve intended for the same use would not have the issues many have experienced. You would only be left with the fundamental differences in the principles of operation. Remember, ball valves have stems too. If you make those stems out of crap material, you'll have the same broken stem issues as a crappy gate valve. If you use a gate valve with a rubber disc, its not going to last very long in such a harsh environment. Get a gate valve with 1/2 stellite trim and no rubber and see if you have the same issues as a hose spigot. I bet you won't. I bet it seats tight every time. But who has time for all that when the method of operation is way too slow for an emergency situation? I agree; nobody.

Bottom line, if you're stuck with a gate valve, make the best of it. As soon as you can, put in a proper ball valve but for goodness sake, don't go to home depot for it. Get one with trim options that will be resilient in marine conditions. If for some reason you can only get gate valves, then do the same thing. Whatever you do though, don't use a globe, needle, or butterfly valve. That s**t's bananas.

Fair enough; there are solid bronze gate valves which will be much more suitable than the Home Depot type and will remove the dezincification issue.



But the real problems with gate valves, besides dezincification, are:


1. You can't see whether they are open or closed -- an actually very important safety issue.
2. They can easily be jammed open with even a little bit of debris.
3. They take multiple turns to close, and when you are closing one and you enounter resistance, you cannot assume that this means it's closed.


That's why they're against all standards and why they are condemned by all the experts. Nigel Calder in particular is quite categorical about it. Sure I might wait until next haulout if they are otherwise in decent shape, but not beyond that, personally.

[Luckyknot]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Fair enough; there are solid bronze gate valves which will be much more suitable than the Home Depot type and will remove the dezincification issue.



But the real problems with gate valves, besides dezincification, are:


1. You can't see whether they are open or closed -- an actually very important safety issue.
2. They can easily be jammed open with even a little bit of debris.
3. They take multiple turns to close, and when you are closing one and you enounter resistance, you cannot assume that this means it's closed.


That's why they're against all standards and why they are condemned by all the experts. Nigel Calder in particular is quite categorical about it. Sure I might wait until next haulout if they are otherwise in decent shape, but not beyond that, personally.

Agreed

Also, Molykote aka antisieze is really good for keeping stems lubricated if anyone is stuck with gates at the moment. Better than oiling or anything else really.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

"1- This should be evidence enough of why using a gate valve no longer satisfies marine safety standards. There was no way this valve was ever going to close fully even if the handle had not crumbled away. Seacock valves should always be 1/4 turn ball type or tapered cone type per UL and ABYC standards. European standards also require 1/4 turn valves."
https://marinehowto.com/seacock-thru-hull-primer/

"Gate valves have no place on a boat" -- Pat Manly, Simple Boat Maintenance, 2014.

Nigel Calder says the same thing, emphatically.

Shall I go on? Gate valves violate both ABYC and European standards and should NEVER be used below the waterline.

Sorry old thread but ... I completely agree with everything you say about gate valves. Please help me out if you can. I simply cannot find any official online reference for ISO, CE or RCD prohibiting gate valves on recreational boats ... Do you have an official citation for this ?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Sorry old thread but ... I completely agree with everything you say about gate valves. Please help me out if you can. I simply cannot find any official online reference for ISO, CE or RCD prohibiting gate valves on recreational boats ... Do you have an official citation for this ?

Just off the top of my head:


"This should be evidence enough of why using a gate valve no longer satisfies marine safety standards. There was no way this valve was ever going to close fully even if the handle had not crumbled away. Seacock valves should always be 1/4 turn ball type or tapered cone type per UL and ABYC standards. European standards also require 1/4 turn valves."


https://marinehowto.com/seacock-thru-hull-primer/


That's from Rod, known on here as MaineSail, from Marine How To.


Nigel Calder says the same thing somewhere.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Just off the top of my head:


"This should be evidence enough of why using a gate valve no longer satisfies marine safety standards. There was no way this valve was ever going to close fully even if the handle had not crumbled away. Seacock valves should always be 1/4 turn ball type or tapered cone type per UL and ABYC standards. European standards also require 1/4 turn valves."


https://marinehowto.com/seacock-thru-hull-primer/


That's from Rod, known on here as MaineSail, from Marine How To.


Nigel Calder says the same thing somewhere.

As I said, I completely agree but I am looking for an official RCD, CE or ISO standard number or other official citation and cannot find one.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

As I said, I completely agree but I am looking for an official RCD, CE or ISO standard number or other official citation and cannot find one.

The applicable ANSI/UL standard is 1121. The text is behind a $2000 paywall (why aren't ALL standard published transparently?!), but maybe it can be founded quoted somewhere.


The AYBC standard does NOT say the valve must be operated in a quarter turn; it says they "typically" are. But ANSI/UL 1121 is apparently more detailed.

[Dockhead]

ISO 9093/2020 provides that seacocks must inter alia permit a "visual check of the open and closed position", which would seem to exclude gate valves (that is one of the main objections to gate valves).


RCD incorporates these ISO standards.



ISO-9093-2020(3).pdf

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The applicable ANSI/UL standard is 1121. The text is behind a $2000 paywall (why aren't ALL standard published transparently?!), but maybe it can be founded quoted somewhere.


The AYBC standard does NOT say the valve must be operated in a quarter turn; it says they "typically" are. But ANSI/UL 1121 is apparently more detailed.

Again, I am thoroughly versed in all North American Standards and marine legal requirements and have a very large library of all of them.

I am specifically asking about European standards and legal requirements i.e. RCD or CE.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Again, I am thoroughly versed in all North American Standards and marine legal requirements and have a very large library of all of them.

I am specifically asking about European standards and legal requirements i.e. RCD or CE.

See the uploaded ISO document above.


Do you have a copy of ANSI/UL 1121 you can share? What does that say on the matter?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

ISO 9093/2020 provides that seacocks must inter alia permit a "visual check of the open and closed position", which would seem to exclude gate valves (that is one of the main objections to gate valves).


RCD incorporates these ISO standards.



Attachment 288936

Ooops just saw this one. Thanks for that. I will not have time to look at it til' tonight but I will most definitley check it out.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Again, I am thoroughly versed in all North American Standards and marine legal requirements and have a very large library of all of them.

I am specifically asking about European standards and legal requirements i.e. RCD or CE.

and he provided that with a citation to ISO 9093/2000.

6 Seacocks — Design requirements
6.1 General
The seacock shall be designed to permit:
— operation under any condition likely to be encountered under normal service conditions;
— a visual check of the open and closed position.

90 degree turn isn't a hard requirement. Arguably if you wanted to design a new valve which was 30, 45, 90, 120, 180, 270 degrees between between open and close it would meet both ISO and ABYC requirements. As a practical matter there is no reason to make a valve with anything but a 90 degree turn angle however if you wanted to you could as long as open and closed position can be determined by visual check.

A gate valve does not. You can not by visual check determine if a gate valve is opened or closed (or half closed).

The RCD in 2021 was harmonized to reference ISO 9093/2000 for thruhulls and seacocks. So the RC itself just says "see ISO 9093/2000" but can't see how any reading of ISO 9093/2000 would allow a gate valve. Maybe some special gate valve with a visual status indicator.

https://www.europeanboatingindustry....-rcd-standards