glassing plywood prior to hull installation

[dannc]

Originally Posted by scott2640

good stuff! I got problems, I love data!

Scott, since you are building your own boat I would strongly suggest subscribing to Professional Boat Builder( Professional BoatBuilder Magazine - Written for boatbuilders, repairers, designers, and surveyors ) AND buying every previous edition for research( Professional BoatBuilder ). It is not cheap but the magazine, and especially the back issues, is a treasure trove of information.

Blistering was mentioned in this discussion so I will use it as an example about PBBs value.

PBB has some long term test results in the back issues that showed Vinylester and Epoxy minimized/prevented blistering. Seems like both did absorb some water but nothing in comparison to the other resins. Blistering also seems to be due to water temperature. Boat A in Canada might not blister due to the cold water but Boat A in south FLA might blister badly due to the higher water temperature.

All sorts of information in PBB. Highly recommended.

As a previous poster mentioned, getting the Gougeon Brothers( http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/...k%20061205.pdf ) book is a good idea if you have not already read it.

Later,
Dan

[ramblinrod]

[QUOTE=smj;2299308]Finally you admit to epoxy having superior characteristics! I can sleep tonight ��


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum[/QUOTE

I stated early on in the thread that some epoxy characteristics may be superior while others inferior, so in many cases if polyester resin is adequate it may be the better choice.

[smj]

[QUOTE=ramblinrod;2299497]

Originally Posted by smj

Finally you admit to epoxy having superior characteristics! I can sleep tonight ��


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum[/QUOTE

I stated early on in the thread that some epoxy characteristics may be superior while others inferior, so in many cases if polyester resin is adequate it may be the better choice.

Either you have dementia or would make a great politician!


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[smj]

[QUOTE=smj;2299511]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Either you have dementia or would make a great politician!


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

My apologies, I found it.


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[Stumble]

[QUOTE=ramblinrod;2299497]

Originally Posted by smj

Finally you admit to epoxy having superior characteristics! I can sleep tonight ��


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum[/QUOTE

I stated early on in the thread that some epoxy characteristics may be superior while others inferior, so in many cases if polyester resin is adequate it may be the better choice.

Name one mechanical property where polyester is better than epoxy? Becaus the only possible one I can think of is that's by properly mixing the catalyst you can get a very long pot and cure time with polyester, or by not applying the wax keep it from fully curing. But that is literly it.

Tensile strength, compression strength, shear strength, vapor pressure, rigidity, gluing strength, final laminate strength, every single catagory epoxy is better than polyester. Polyester may be good enough in many applications, Anderson certainly is cheaper, but it isn't mechanically better at all.

[jimbunyard]

[QUOTE=Stumble;2299695]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Name one mechanical property where polyester is better than epoxy? Becaus the only possible one I can think of is that's by properly mixing the catalyst you can get a very long pot and cure time with polyester, or by not applying the wax keep it from fully curing. But that is literly it.

Tensile strength, compression strength, shear strength, vapor pressure, rigidity, gluing strength, final laminate strength, every single catagory epoxy is better than polyester. Polyester may be good enough in many applications, Anderson certainly is cheaper, but it isn't mechanically better at all.

UV resistance.

[jimbunyard]

1:30 AM here, just won a bet on the Alabama vs Clemson game, made before either were qualified to be in the playoff, based on the statistic that Alabama had won 'X' number of games. 20 bucks, yeehah. And, commensurately, 'X' beers in the wind...

This---discussion---debate---argument--who's-got-the-biggest-dick squabble is idiotic. The quoted '20 percent' number, as addressed
very early in the thread, is so constrained by chaotic variabilities so as to make it meaningless.

So hey, if you don't know where it is appropriate to use a material, or if you're not competent with its' use, or even it you just 'heard that it's not good', then don't use it.

Meanwhile, people that are competent, and know where, how, when and why to use appropriate materials and construction techniques will continue to use them and produce, both economically and physically, efficient products and services...

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

...The quoted '20 percent' number...

...was pulled from thin air.

[ramblinrod]

[QUOTE=Stumble;2299695]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Name one mechanical property where polyester is better than epoxy? Becaus the only possible one I can think of is that's by properly mixing the catalyst you can get a very long pot and cure time with polyester, or by not applying the wax keep it from fully curing. But that is literly it.

Tensile strength, compression strength, shear strength, vapor pressure, rigidity, gluing strength, final laminate strength, every single catagory epoxy is better than polyester. Polyester may be good enough in many applications, Anderson certainly is cheaper, but it isn't mechanically better at all.

Please show me where anyone has suggested polyester has superior mechanical properties in this thread?

The only place I would suggest polyester mechanical properties are superior would be for post cure primary bond. I have no data to support this, it is just my belief based on a lot of experience using both materials.

So here is a list of reasons why I believe polyester may be superior to epoxy for various applications:

1. Better post cure primary cross linked molecular bond.
2. Easy gelcoat compatibility.
3. Easily adjustable cure time (catalyst %).
4. Cure time less temperature sensitive.
5. Less likely to catch fire while curing.
6. Much lower cost.
7. Easier clean-up.
8. Easier thinning.
9. Easier spray.
10. Much more UV stable.
11. Fewer formulations needed to cover a wide variety of apps.
12. Lower risk of contracting contact dermatitis.
13. Lesser risk of developing cancer.
14. No special pumps needed or associated clean up.

For these reasons, in almost all construction and repair work I perform personally and professionally, polyester resin is a far better choice over epoxy in my opinion.

And again, I do use epoxy where I believe it is needed.

However, in my 40 years of personal and professional experience with various resins in manufacturing and repair, epoxy is just NOT THE BEST SOLUTION for as many applications as a lot of DIYers (and some epoxy "raised" pros) believe.

If anyone disagrees, that is absolutely their right.

Meanwhile, I have never had a polyester bond failure or unsatisfied customer due to polyester adhesion issue, so what does that tell you?

[smj]

[QUOTE=ramblinrod;2300054]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Please show me where anyone has suggested polyester has superior mechanical properties in this thread?



The only place I would suggest polyester mechanical properties are superior would be for post cure primary bond. I have no data to support this, it is just my belief based on a lot of experience using both materials.



So here is a list of reasons why I believe polyester may be superior to epoxy for various applications:



1. Better post cure primary cross linked molecular bond.

2. Easy gelcoat compatibility.

3. Easily adjustable cure time (catalyst %).

4. Cure time less temperature sensitive.

5. Less likely to catch fire while curing.

6. Much lower cost.

7. Easier clean-up.

8. Easier thinning.

9. Easier spray.

10. Much more UV stable.

11. Fewer formulations needed to cover a wide variety of apps.

12. Lower risk of contracting contact dermatitis.

13. Lesser risk of developing cancer.

14. No special pumps needed or associated clean up.



For these reasons, in almost all construction and repair work I perform personally and professionally, polyester resin is a far better choice over epoxy in my opinion.



And again, I do use epoxy where I believe it is needed.



However, in my 40 years of personal and professional experience with various resins in manufacturing and repair, epoxy is just NOT THE BEST SOLUTION for as many applications as a lot of DIYers (and some epoxy "raised" pros) believe.



If anyone disagrees, that is absolutely their right.



Meanwhile, I have never had a polyester bond failure or unsatisfied customer due to polyester adhesion issue, so what does that tell you?

In your first post you said results were superior using polyester resin. You were talking about laying glass on plywood. You're assumption that polyester is superior in this application is wrong.


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[UNCIVILIZED]

Guys, ENOUGH! This thread is worse than a bad zombie movie. It just won't die! Leave it be, please.

[Scout 30]

[QUOTE=ramblinrod;2300054][QUOTE=Stumble;2299695]

Please show me where anyone has suggested polyester has superior mechanical properties in this thread?

The only place I would suggest polyester mechanical properties are superior would be for post cure primary bond. I have no data to support this, it is just my belief based on a lot of experience using both materials....



Ramblinrod, I have never seen someone hijack a thread this blatantly before. On top of that the amount of backtracking & just outright falsehoods has been astounding. If you feel so strongly about this start your own thread. I also suggest you start it on another more appropriate forum like WoodenBoat. Of course we all know you won't do that because you'd be laughed off the internet.

Really pathetic.

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

...was pulled from thin air.

By whom?

From West's website

WEST SYSTEM | Epoxy Resins and Hardeners - Physical Properties

And Iowa State University's engineering department

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...RFeBZaAtaXkPhQ

Where the tested properties are the same;

Tensile Strength

West ......54.09 Mpa (7846 psi)

Iso .........75 Mpa

Tensile Modulus

West .......4.03E+/-5 (West gives this as PSI, don't know what it means)
Iso ..........490,000 PSI

Tensile Elongation

West ........3.4
Iso ...........3.3

Flexural Strength

West .........97.29 Mpa (14112 psi)
Iso ..........130 Mpa

Hardness
West ..........83 (Shore D)
Iso .............40 (Barcol)

Someone else can do the conversion

Heat deflection temperature

West ..........118 F
Iso .............175 F

[ramblinrod]

[QUOTE=smj;2300070]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

In your first post you said results were superior using polyester resin.

Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Context my man, context.

Yes, polyester does produce better results (for post cure cross-linked adhesion) than epoxy. (As related to the preceding sentence in that post.)

Epoxy is terrible at that.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

Ramblinrod, I have never seen someone hijack a thread this blatantly before.

Gimme a break.

I attempted to contribute to this thread.

I have been respectful to all, even when others (especially you) haven't been.

I have every right to defend my position when challenged.

If you wish me to stop defending, then stop challenging.

On top of that the amount of backtracking & just outright falsehoods has been astounding.

You have yet to identify one valid instance of back tracking or false statement on my part.

I stand behind every statement I have made in this thread.