Herreshoff Carribean Ketch 50 - Full Liveaboard Refit

[robvb]

Dear Community,
we're a couple from Germany in our late 30s, and we've saved enough to buy a boat from the 70ties and now want to start a refit in coop with a shipyard in Greece.

Our plan is to strip her down to the hull and bring her back to life. After the refit, we're looking forward to exploring the Mediterranean and ensuring Freya is "blue water ready" for future adventures. We hope that by the end of our 40ties, we can leave everything behind and live on our boat, so we have 10 years to get her in a shape and would be glad about your advice at the start of this amazing project

We're keen on upgrading almost everything—electricals, solar, carpentry, rigging, engine etc. The aim is to make her both functional and aesthetically pleasing, while paying homage to her classic 1970s lines.

We've set up a document to guide us through this journey, but we'd love to hear from those who've been down this path before. What do most people overlook in a refit? What issues have you encountered while on a blue water journey? Your feedback will be immensely valuable for our project.

Please don't hesitate to add your comments in this document, we would be happy about any insights from the community.

Thank you in advance and all our best wishes!
Zimmy and Rob

[HankOnthewater]

Hi there, a big project, a very nice boat. However with replacing virtually everything except hull and masts, I wonder if you can do better with another boat, more modern shape, more interior volume, more ready to sail.
Have you done a budget in today's prices? When you do that, compare what you can get for that kind of money, without all the effort and time you need to put in your Freya.
I would not be surprised if you can buy a similar sized boat like Halberg Rassy, Swedish Yachts, Amel, or some other boats from the eighties.

Or have you purchased Freya already? That being the case you will almost certainly over-capitalise in a big way. The comforting news is that nearly all boatowners are spending too much on their boats, so you are not on your own.

In my recollection some forum members have or had such boat, and there are some threads on these boats.

[robvb]

Originally Posted by HankOnthewater

Hi there, a big project, a very nice boat. However with replacing virtually everything except hull and masts, I wonder if you can do better with another boat, more modern shape, more interior volume, more ready to sail.
Have you done a budget in today's prices? When you do that, compare what you can get for that kind of money, without all the effort and time you need to put in your Freya.
I would not be surprised if you can buy a similar sized boat like Halberg Rassy, Swedish Yachts, Amel, or some other boats from the eighties.

Or have you purchased Freya already? That being the case you will almost certainly over-capitalise in a big way. The comforting news is that nearly all boatowners are spending too much on their boats, so you are not on your own.

In my recollection some forum members have or had such boat, and there are some threads on these boats.

Thanks for the suggestion Hank. I surely agree, refitting Freya is not rational from a financial perspective. Nevertheless, we purchased her already, sailed her 400nm into the shipyard and the refit will start next week. We just love the vessel, she has such a huge cockpit that can fit 10 people easily and is such a beauty (in our eyes at least)

I also checked all the threads on the Herreshoff in this forum already and found super helpful ideas/suggestions

[deltaten]

Robvb:
See to all the "boat systems" first. By that I mean engine and drive, thru hulls , hull repairs, keel issues and the entire rig & sails.

Sooooo many refits seem to be a lot of cosmetics and little substance. Many is the "refit" I've watched that were more concerned with color scheme, paneling choices and which fancy lighting to use. Then, once at sea, had issues with mechanicals , sails etc and basic navigation gear.

That perfect hull surface or beautiful interior won't mean crap if your rig fails or the driveline poops out Just remember.....it's gotta float and go, and people on the inside, water on the outside.

Best of luck to you
FW&FS

[Madehn]

Finishing up 10 yr stretch on creating my cruising boat. Here are my best suggestions
1) make everything easy to get at for maintenance. If it is easy it will get done if not maintenance will always get deferred until it breaks.
2) what is new technology now will be obsolete or aging in 10 years so start with basics and leave more technical stuff until last.
3) design a viable security system and install
4) make copious notes on every systems installation as you go. Rely on memory for nothing.
5) design things in a way that people older than you are now will be comfortable using and living with them.
6) keep systems simple and independent of each other. Complicated is a pain to find when it breaks and really does not make life easier.
7 pay particular attention to ease of use for refrigeration stoves etc Also for boat ingress and egress these are things you will use every day multiple times. Likewise dinghy storage.
8 look at little things. Example do you have to bend down to latch that door open or does it have an eye level catch or magnetic fastener?
9 I would want to be there when people are working on projects or at the very least sign off on each individual project before final half of funds are paid. ( never more than 50% up front).
10 a continuously updated wiring diagram will be worth gold later.

11) people are rarely disappointed when they buy the very best in equipment.

Hope this gives food for thought. Best of luck.

[Bowdrie]

You have and will surely get more ideas of how to proceed.
Good looking boat by the way.
I would add to not get carried away with trying to hide all the wiring and hoses.
That is a real sore spot, and later becomes a nightmare on many "modern" boats when changes/additions are made, (and they will be).
Concerning the mechanicals and other devices; engine, valves, water heater, batteries, holding tanks, etc., etc.
Any time you can set things up so that you can "See with both eyes, hold onto with both hands" without being in a mashed-up/uncomfortable position will pay huge dividends on down the line.

[Emmalina]

Its a labor of love it never ends !

[nuku34]

Hello OP,
I've owned 5 yachts in 50 years and done fairly major refits on some of them. I've got 20 years full-time cruising and living aboard experience; around 70,000 open ocean miles racing and cruising.

I appreciate your zeal, but based on my experience, it might end in tears.

I've read your "document' and would have to say that even if you do a lot of the work yourselves, this project is going to cost you hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. As a commentor up-thread mentioned, this yacht will be seriously overcapitalized for what it is. Having a cockpit that seats 10 people would not be high on my list of desirable characteristics in a live-aboard cruising boat.

In New Zealand dollars, I would estimate you are looking at $350,000 to $400,000 for this job, and 10 years is a long time to wait to use the boat!
You didn't mention what your skills are and where your $$ is coming from.



My current yacht, an Alden 46, had her teak deck removed (the decking under is NOT plywood) and replaced with a glue-on non-skid material (not cork based). This was done professionally before I bought the yacht and cost the last owner NZ$80,000.



Without going into detail, your desire to have this large and very heavy yacht motoring on electric power is "aspirational" and not reality based. There is no way you are going to have room for enough solar to keep a huge (and expensive) battery bank charged and be able to motor for long periods of time, make water, do laundry, cooking (I assume you don't want LPG).
That said, good luck to you. Sorry to "rain on your parade", but you did ask for comments from experienced sailors.

[Flying Monkey]

Excellent thread. Wow! Look at all this wisdom being shared!

My two cents: "the most expensive thing you can buy is a cheap /inexpensive boat".
Save, invest the money you would spend over the next ten years in re-fit. Pile it up. Then, in then years, when you are ready, buy a boat that works for you and is "ready to go" ...
Or maybe... you will want to do something else with all that cash.

Not even a brand new boat from the factory is "ready to go" , but is closer.

Electric drive in a cruising sailboat. No. Stick with good, old diesel. It makes the world go 'round.

[Mezamorta]

Hello Robvb,

Best wishes for your project.

I'd like to ask if you examined the chainplates on this boat yet ? Especially the ones for shrouds. Are they original, are they visible/accessible or embedded ... 316 steel, bronze etc ? and in what condition ?

Thanks

[Nekton73]

I'd suggest adding a Spares and Tools list to your planning, both what to have and where to store it.



Completely off topic (apologies), there appear to be 3 steaming lights on the mainmast, can anyone suggest why? If they are all multicoloured then I guess that gives the ability to display lighting such as fishing, or NUC, or RIA, but I can't see why a sailboat would want or need that.

[BAD ORCA]

The biggest thing i overlooked was how much it actually is costing me to do this -vs- what i imagined it would cost. I have now doubled my estimates and they seem more realistic. Its still worth it though if you love what your doing and are in love with the boat. In the end the money really doesnt matter all that much. Have fun its a fun journey to refit a boat the way you imagine it should be. Hope to run across you one day in the Med.

[Flying Monkey]

Bad Orca makes a very good point and reminds me of a boat situation I experienced in 2017. I saw a tremendous, pirate boat, dreamboat, for sale. It was one of those amazing Formosa Ketch rigged 51s. Oh damm, I bit hard on that one. Of course, it was for sale, cheap. It was in the water in Maryland. I went to look. I hesitated. It had wooden masts and a rotten deck. Water damage inside, but still amazing and beautiful on the interior. The boat was sold to someone else. I wanted it though and persisted. It became available again. I went to look, again, and ghen a third time. I took dear old Dad to help inspect and decide.
Dad gave me sound wisdom. He said, you can buy this boat, but you will never sail it. The decision is, do you want to work on boars or sail boats? Both are great, but decide now which one you want to do. If you want to go sailing, this is not the boat. If you want to work on boats, then this is a great boat.
I decided I wanted to sail, so I let it go, and kept looking.
That same trip, in another marina, while I was looking at a different boat, I saw another Formosa. I started to drool.
The boat broker stopped me. He said, no.. this one is not ready yet. It needs to have a few more owners, before it can get out to sail. He said this thing has been sitting here for 15 years and has not moved and is on the third owner that he was aware of. It had an amazing, new rig, brand new masts and standing rigging, fancy, custom made stuff, but the inside was gutted. I passed by that one as well.

[robvb]

Dear Community,
I want to express my gratitude for the super valuable advice and insights you've shared with us. It's heartwarming to see such generous support from so many knowledgeable and experienced individuals.

I'm excited to update you on the progress we've made with Freya. Our journey is unfolding in Athens, where we're collaborating with a skilled shipyard team, complemented by specialized professionals like electricians, riggers, and painters, working on a gig basis.

Achievements So Far:

• Cleaning Up: We've cleaned the boat's interior, removing all hoses, cables, and most furniture.
• Deck and Mast: Removed the old teak deck and sealed it with epoxy. The mast has been unstepped and inspected – thankfully, it's in great shape!
• Bowthruster & Sea Valves: Installed the tube for the new bowthruster and replaced all sea valves.
• Engine Update: Out with the old engine, in with the new – a Nanni N4.140.
• Hull Prep: Stripped the hull of all paint, antifouling, and primer, prepping it for a fresh start.

Upcoming Steps:

• Hull Finishing: We're priming and painting the hull next.
• Bowthruster & Windlass: Installation of the new bowthruster and windlass.
• Electrical Overhaul: Setting up a new electrical system is on the agenda.
• Plumbing Update: All hoses and the entire water system are due for replacement.
• New Deck: We're excited about laying down a new cork deck.
• Rigging & Sails: We'll be replacing the standing and running rigging and opting for a Solent rig for our sails.
• Interior Makeover: The interior will undergo a comprehensive redo.
• Watermaker Installation: Ensuring fresh water with a new watermaker.
• Renewable Energy: Setting up solar and wind energy systems.
• Pilothouse Construction: And finally, building a pilothouse to top it all off.

We're looking at investing around €250k in total for this refit. It's a big commitment, but we believe every step is a move towards creating our dream vessel

We're open to more suggestions and guidance as we embark on these next steps.


Thank you once again!

all the best
Zimmy and Rob

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by robvb

[*]Interior Makeover: The interior will undergo a comprehensive redo.[*][B]

I don't know just how deep/wide the word "comprehensive" means to you.
That said, with a boat of that size/volume you're not constrained as much as on a smaller boat.
I'll offer some things to consider.
If you can have a lay-out where when sitting on the toilet(s) you are facing fore-or-aft you will be much happier than trying to "do your business" whilst tilted back or forward several degrees.
It's good if you face forward on a toilet that's aft of center, and face aft on a toilet that's forward of center.
If there are 2 heads, having them on opposite sides is good.
If you're changing the galley, it's nice if the main place you stand/work is not directly in front of the stove.
Being able to wedge/chock/brace yourself off to one side of the stove is safer in lumpy seas.
Having the stove-top somewhat below counter height is good, especially for a shorter person.
If rebuilding seating/settees, remember that the common more-or-less "standards" for furniture were arrived at for people between ~5'5" to ~5'8", if your much taller than that you'll be more comfortable with higher seating.
Have fun, you've an opportunity to "fit things" the way you want.