How much LPG (Propane/Butane) do cruising yachts carry?

[sailorboy1]

I carry 2 10lb tanks. I am full time on the boat and get 1.5-2 months normally from 1 tank, unless a lot of slow cooked things got made.

Whatever size you go with, you need 2 tanks or it will go empty in the middle of a nowhere while cooking breakfast. I was a little slow on this lesson.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

There really does not seem to be any standardisation in Europe, it just varies from county to country, and even within one country.

Try and make your propane locker and the tie-down/restraining system for the bottles as versatile as possible so you can fit a wide range of sizes.

Correct except for Campingaz that is availble in most countries but it is also the most expensive way to get butane.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by coopec43

If I ever made it to Europe or the US couldn't I have MY bottles filled? (Maybe at the marina?)
(I've noted the problems of not being allowed to carry the bottles on trains, buses and taxis)

In Australia these days the bottles are exchanged although I know a couple of filling stations (They'd be few and far between though)

In the US you could likely get your bottles filled. Ease of access to a filling or exchange station will vary depending on where you are. It's rare for a marina to offer either service, but sometimes there's a place nearby that does. At my home marina, for example, the grocery store across the street does propane cylinder exchanges, but the nearest filling station is a few miles away.

In general, the less often you have to do it, the easier it'll be to manage.

[wsmurdoch]

The OP may be interested in an earlier thread on this subject...
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...se-238878.html

The ability to transfer propane from one tank to another is a skill that can sometimes be quite handy...
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post1932236

[Leee]

Pressure cookers are great on board, especially the inox Spanish or Portuguese ones. They save a lot of fuel. Re propane, I started out with two US style 20 pounders and now have Italian/Greek ones, same volume but taller. I'll try to make these last through the summer passing through France via canals as they are not refillable in France and different again in the UK. Two 20 lb/9kg is about right if you can fit them.

[stormalong]

A lot of European countries use butane. It can be used in place of propane but burns a little cooler. I have used butane with no noticeable difference.

You can transfer propane or butane to your USA tanks. You will need a hose with a POL fitting on it and will need to find an appropriate fitting for whatever tank you get locally. Many European tanks have the pressure regulator built into the tank fitting and can't be used to transfer. The supply tank needs to be inverted so you transfer liquid rather than gas. It helps a lot if the supply tank is warmer that the destination tank.

The good news is that the British Isles, New Zealand and Australia use a POL compatible fitting. It is not exactly identical but close enough. The problem in Australia and New Zealand is what they can legally fill. You may or may not be able to get USA tanks filled depending on the willingness of the person doing the filling.

All the above is based on twelve year old and older info. I was in the Med in the 1990's, England in the early 2000's And last time in New Zealand in 2010.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by stormalong

A lot of European countries use butane. It can be used in place of propane but burns a little cooler. I have used butane with no noticeable difference.

Butane burns a bit hotter with the same regulator. It does not gas when geting close to 0C but It's popular in southern Europe where that it not much of a problem

[bailsout]

Zero.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by coopec43

If I ever made it to Europe or the US couldn't I have MY bottles filled?

Probably not. For fills in the USA, the cylinder has to be manufactured to US specifications and be stamped by the manufacturer with the specification it meets, usually DOT-4B240, aluminum and fiberglass cylinders are different. If your cylinder doesn't have the stamp, and most sold outside North America don't, you can't get it filled, and yes they do check. Canada has similar requirements and most cylinders sold in North America have both Canadian and US approvals.


I don't know what the situation is in Europe.



Some cruisers get a hose with the correct fittings and connect a local tank to their own and transfer the propane. There is the obvious fire hazard and also the risk of frostbite, as liquid propane has a -40 degree boiling point. Pressures can exceed 200 PSI on a hot day. Propane is a solvent and will cause rubber hoses to deteriorate with use and over time.

[JPA Cate]

@ Jammer,

I saw lots of people gravity feeding propane from x nationality propane tanks into US ones. I never heard of anyone getting frostbite doing it, and I doubt it is a serious risk, as long as one does the transfer with care. If the "pigtail" fittings are put together without leaks, just how do you think the frostbite would occur?

Thanks in advance for your answer.

PS. The current boat carries two 9k tanks.

Ann

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by s/v Moondancer

We cruised for 11 years in 20 countries between Nova Scotia and Northern Japan using 2 20lb gas bottles and never had a problem finding gas.

We've cruised and lived aboard for over 30 years and have used propane (from two 9kg bottles) for cooking (AND DOMESTIC HOT WATER) during that period.

We've visited 35 countries, (not including Europe) and have always been able to refill our bottles, though not without difficulties in a couple of places.

Our consumption for cooking and water heating is approximately 21 days per 9kg bottle.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

@ Jammer,

I saw lots of people gravity feeding propane from x nationality propane tanks into US ones. I never heard of anyone getting frostbite doing it, and I doubt it is a serious risk, as long as one does the transfer with care. If the "pigtail" fittings are put together without leaks, just how do you think the frostbite would occur?

Thanks in advance for your answer.

PS. The current boat carries two 9k tanks.

Ann

Ann,


I know you're calling me out on this but the hazard is real and the injuries can be life-changing i.e. loss of fingers, blindness, etc. I use gravity feed to transfer propane too. People should be aware of the risk. Ideally, wear goggles, winter gloves, and long-sleeved shirts and pants.



Depending on the circumstances some liquid propane may remain in the line when the filling process is complete and the valves are closed. Not always. But when it does, the liquid sprays out when the connectors are loosened, and can lead to serious skin injuries, and (less often) eye injuries. This is the most common accident sequence. It is also possible for a hose to burst or a fitting or o-ring to fail, a particular risk when ersatz jumper hoses are assembled with hose clamps over a pipe rather than a proper barb.


Hoses can also burst if the hose is left filled with liquid propane, with both valves closed, and then allowed to warm up in the sun or on a warming day. The liquid propane expands and can produce enough pressure to burst even high-quality hose. Commercial fill systems have a separate relief valve for the hose itself to protect against this.



Commercial fill operators are hospitalized with frostbite injuries with startling regularity. The commercial fill nozzles have valves in them so that it is not necessary to empty the hose of liquid propane, and have a bleed valve to vent any propane left between the tank valve and the fill nozzle valve.


While we're on the topic, there is also a risk of overfilling the destination tank, which leads to various follow-on accident risks. Even cylinders with an overfill prevention device (OPD) can be overfilled when gravity filling is used, because the OPD does not close the valve completely allowing additional propane to flow if the tanks are left connected for an hour or more as is common when doing this.




https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/accide...l?id=202531430


https://www.semanticscholar.org/pape...787088e4f0b920


https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._petroleum_gas


Here's a medical report of a serious propane frostbite injury which unfortunately lacks details of the accident itself. 11 days intubated in the hospital due to frostbite damage to his throat:


https://www.semanticscholar.org/pape...2187a045f5d484


And a very old report from someone transfilling propane into a tractor in 1955, who lost two fingers and much of the function of his hands:


https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...bstract/300361

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by coopec43

LPG in Australia is composed of propane. So referring to LPG as propane is accurate – they're one and the same thing. In the United States, the name LPG isn't in common use. Americans just call it propane.8 May 2019

So in Australia we use Propane just as people in the US do......

In the USA the terminology varies regionally and has evolved over time. When I was growing up in Minnesota it was always "LP Gas." Now the same product is nearly always called propane.


I believe that LPG in the United States, in the past, often included a significant amount of butane particularly in warmer areas -- either all butane or 50/50 propane and butane. As far as I know, this is no longer common.

[coopec43]

I am confused!

I just did a google on "LPG"

Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG, LP gas, or condensate) is a fuel gas made of petrol which contains a flammable mixture of hydrocarbon gases, most commonly propane, butane, and propylene.However, the latter two typically compose 5% or less of the mixture. LPG is used as a fuel gas in heating appliances, cooking equipment, and vehicles.It is increasingly used as an aerosol propellant and a ... (Wikipedia)

LPG in Australia is composed of propane. So referring to LPG as propane is accurate – they're one and the same thing. In the United States, the name LPG isn't in common use. Americans just call it propane.8 May 2019

Is propane gas available in Europe?

Most European countries sell LPG at filling stations, although it's best to research local suppliers on the internet. Bear in mind, too, that LPG in the UK is propane, but in southern Europe, it is a blend of propane and butane, with the rations altered to fit the seasons.4 Oct 2018

So in Australia we use Propane just as people in the US and Europe do do......

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Probably not. For fills in the USA, the cylinder has to be manufactured to US specifications and be stamped by the manufacturer with the specification it meets, usually DOT-4B240, aluminum and fiberglass cylinders are different. If your cylinder doesn't have the stamp, and most sold outside North America don't, you can't get it filled, and yes they do check. Canada has similar requirements and most cylinders sold in North America have both Canadian and US approvals.


I don't know what the situation is in Europe.



Some cruisers get a hose with the correct fittings and connect a local tank to their own and transfer the propane. There is the obvious fire hazard and also the risk of frostbite, as liquid propane has a -40 degree boiling point. Pressures can exceed 200 PSI on a hot day. Propane is a solvent and will cause rubber hoses to deteriorate with use and over time.

Jammer, I want to thank you for this information (and that in your other email on this subject).

In the past I have rather casually decanted LPG from an exchangeable bottle to my own tanks. My connections were thrown together and at times leaky. Like perhaps too much of what i do I "just did it" without any knowledge or thinking, I guess I am lucky or maybe my guardian angle was protecting me.

I may do this again, but at least now I have some awareness of the dangers. Before I had no clue.

Thank you.