Insurance--DIY fixes that your insurance might not like

[MoorOrLess]

Originally Posted by Paul L

As noted above ABYC standards are not publicly available. You need to join the club first.

Just because there is a cost associated with obtaining a standards document doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be followed.
Like Standards for most industry where they are produced by an organization, they have to be purchased or a subscription paid.
Standards themselves are living documents that require updates. It costs money to maintain a standard.
As they say “no such thing as a free lunch”

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by MoorOrLess

Just because there is a cost associated with obtaining a standards document doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be followed.
Like Standards for most industry where they are produced by an organization, they have to be purchased or a subscription paid.
Standards themselves are living documents that require updates. It costs money to maintain a standard.
As they say “no such thing as a free lunch”

These standards are written for the commercial market. They are not oriented to the DIY guy? It isnt practical for the typical DIYer to purchase these standards before working on their boat. That was my point. Lets see, buy a $600 standard to avoid paying a certified installer $250????? Following what you know of the standard is a good thing in most cases. You can buy decent books like Calders that lay out the basics for much less than tne standards.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by foothillsailor

OK Boatpoker ---I've looked but damned if I can figure out what was wrong in the battery pictures --please educate me :-) Thanks

2400amps in a unventilated compartment
with a non-ignition protected battery charger,
without positive terminal protection
and no fuses on the positive conductors.

[john61ct]

amp hours?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by john61ct

amp hours?

MCA.
Eight - 200amp 6vdc house bank batteries and one 800amp 12vdc starting battery

[john61ct]

my bad, ignore

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

2400amps in a unventilated compartment
with a non-ignition protected battery charger,
without positive terminal protection
and no fuses on the positive conductors.

Ah. I was going to ask, too. I didn't notice the charger LOL! Good one. Also while I like fuses on the batteries, I didn't realize that they were ABYC specified. Couldn't spot any ventilation equipment but couldn't tell that there was none, either, from the pic. I do notice that the batteries have no hold-downs and can move more than 1/2", though, but that doesn't guarantee an explosion. Also I can't tell if they are resting in some sort of tray or just on an open rack or something. Doesn't ABYC say a battery box is required? I wouldn't know. You see, I can't afford to join the club.



Yes, I see the point that it costs money to maintain the standards and keep them updated. But on the other hand, look what we have... an organization promoting a set of standards, and insurance companies requiring them to be followed, that costs $600 for the boat owner to access fully. If they are essentially required, the information should be public. ABYC is a BUSINESS, promoting its own importance and charging the consumer for it. The members of this business are largely those earning money selling the required equipment and services. VERY self serving for the vendors. Very predatory on the end users. Sure, owning a boat is "optional", and in many cases, getting insurance is, as well. But then the owner has to contend with the court system even if some powerboat guy rams his boat at the dock while falling down drunk and pulling a 2 foot wake behind him. Is your vessel ABYC compliant? Hmmmmm.... we have a surveyor who is conveniently enough an ABYC member who knows all these mystery standards... too bad you aren't a responsible boat owner and didn't know them yourself...



Much of it is common sense. Some that is not so obvious is still very sensible. Okay, nearly all of it is sensible. But not all of it is obvious to some guy who just bought his first boat big enough to keep in the water, and has good intentions but doesn't know all the answers or all of the secrets of ABYC and can't afford to keep an electrician, rigger, plumber, and general shipwright on retainer. If it is priced out of reach or an ordinary working man, then yes, I call it a secret. Teasing the consumer with dribs and drabs does not constitute full disclosure.



There. I feel better now. That's my rant for the day. I know that there are others, mostly vendors or servicers or those with deep pockets, who will disagree with me, and who might not say it, but who strongly believe that less affluent people have no business messing about in boats. "Stop this foolishness at once, and get back to your lawnmowers and leafblowers and cash registers, peasants." Wow I guess my rant wasn't quite over. Okay, now it is.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Ah. I was going to ask, too. I didn't notice the charger LOL! Good one. Also while I like fuses on the batteries, I didn't realize that they were ABYC specified. Couldn't spot any ventilation equipment but couldn't tell that there was none, either, from the pic. I do notice that the batteries have no hold-downs and can move more than 1/2", though, but that doesn't guarantee an explosion. Also I can't tell if they are resting in some sort of tray or just on an open rack or something. Doesn't ABYC say a battery box is required? I wouldn't know. You see, I can't afford to join the club.



Yes, I see the point that it costs money to maintain the standards and keep them updated. But on the other hand, look what we have... an organization promoting a set of standards, and insurance companies requiring them to be followed, that costs $600 for the boat owner to access fully. If they are essentially required, the information should be public. ABYC is a BUSINESS, promoting its own importance and charging the consumer for it. The members of this business are largely those earning money selling the required equipment and services. VERY self serving for the vendors. Very predatory on the end users. Sure, owning a boat is "optional", and in many cases, getting insurance is, as well. But then the owner has to contend with the court system even if some powerboat guy rams his boat at the dock while falling down drunk and pulling a 2 foot wake behind him. Is your vessel ABYC compliant? Hmmmmm.... we have a surveyor who is conveniently enough an ABYC member who knows all these mystery standards... too bad you aren't a responsible boat owner and didn't know them yourself...



Much of it is common sense. Some that is not so obvious is still very sensible. Okay, nearly all of it is sensible. But not all of it is obvious to some guy who just bought his first boat big enough to keep in the water, and has good intentions but doesn't know all the answers or all of the secrets of ABYC and can't afford to keep an electrician, rigger, plumber, and general shipwright on retainer. If it is priced out of reach or an ordinary working man, then yes, I call it a secret. Teasing the consumer with dribs and drabs does not constitute full disclosure.



There. I feel better now. That's my rant for the day. I know that there are others, mostly vendors or servicers or those with deep pockets, who will disagree with me, and who might not say it, but who strongly believe that less affluent people have no business messing about in boats. "Stop this foolishness at once, and get back to your lawnmowers and leafblowers and cash registers, peasants." Wow I guess my rant wasn't quite over. Okay, now it is.

ABYC is a Non-Profit and survives on membership dues ... somebody has to pay for it.

Batttery boxes .... not specifically boxes but some acid resistant method of containing spilled electrolyte.

Fuses ... ABYC requires fsues within 7" of the positive terminals on all non-starting batteries. I believe this standard is inadequate and that all batteries should be fuse protected. Where does that 800amps go ifyour solenoid or starter locks up ?

Hold downs ..... Yes. ABYC requires that batteries not move more than 1/2" in any direction. That is why I said that in this case it was arguable due to that very heavy hatch. If a hatch that sizes moves and uncovers the batteries in heavy weather, you've got bigger problems to deal with.

[sailorboy1]

The problem is that if there isn't real standards then "suggested" type of standards will get used by a lawyer or insurance company. And even then it has to be with a "certified" technician if you don't want them to try to come after you because then they will after them instead.

There's the right way, the wrong way, and the lawyer insurance way.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

The problem is that if there isn't real standards then "suggested" type of standards will get used by a lawyer or insurance company. And even then it has to be with a "certified" technician if you don't want them to try to come after you because then they will after them instead.

There's the right way, the wrong way, and the lawyer insurance way.

What would you suggest instead ?

[Cpt Mark]

Yes, it is a scam and the insurance companies want something they can point to for definitive this is how it should be done. I agree they need something like that but that info should then be public.

I have gone round and round with my insurance com pay who won't cover my mast because I didn't spend a bunch of money for that during the survey. My argument to them was, I used to do this for a living, it's ok. Finally I told them they can insure it after I replace the rigging which was always my plan anyway. We'll see how it goes after I am done. I argued a number of other recommendations etc.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Cpt Mark

Yes, it is a scam and the insurance companies want something they can point to for definitive this is how it should be done. I agree they need something like that but that info should then be public.

It could only be public if the public (your taxes) paid for it

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

It could only be public if the public (your taxes) paid for it

Not really. The major contributors to the specs are not getting paid. It is a choice to keep them proprietary. At this stage of technology approaches its a little old school.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

The problem is that if there isn't real standards then "suggested" type of standards will get used by a lawyer or insurance company....

But there are real standards. The USCG has regulations with the force of law and has published a boat builder's handbook. Although I think ABYC has done a lot of good work, they are NOT regulations and therefore cannot be taken as a minimum standard in any legal sense. The minimum standard is in the printed in the Code of Federal Regulations. Sorry, but using ABYC seems like an incredible leap when discussing owner responsibility.



As a member of other industry groups, I understand why they are not free, but restricted publication is one more argument against accepting them as a defacto minimum.


If the members of ABYC feel strongly they should be included in regulation, they they should work with the USCG. Many ASTM and API standards become part of regulations by reference. But until that happens, they are an internal industry document, nothing more.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Not really. The major contributors to the specs are not getting paid. It is a choice to keep them proprietary. At this stage of technology approaches its a little old school.

ABYC, CSA, SAE, UL, ULC, CE, Lloyds, ABS, Det Norske Veritas, NFPA, ISO, ASTM, DIN, ASHRAE, API. I don't think you can find a single standards organization that can produce standards for free. It costs a huge amount of money to create, test and publish these standards. Surely you understand someone has to pay. Do you think the volunteers and paid staff should take the money out of their own pockets ? Who do you think should pay ?