Just get a survey

[john manning]

1. The problem with surveys is that they tell you all the reasons NOT to buy a boat. I seldom get surveys.
2. I have earned quite a lot of money during my life and owned several boats. But I am not any where near being wealthy.

Maybe there is a connection between those two. But at least I owned boats instead of survey reports.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by john manning

1. The problem with surveys is that they tell you all the reasons NOT to buy a boat. I seldom get surveys.

2. I have earned quite a lot of money during my life and owned several boats. But I am not any where near being wealthy.



Maybe there is a connection between those two. But at least I owned boats instead of survey reports.

But wouldnt you rather learn those reasons before they all become your problems that will have to be addressed using your time and your money? Ive owned and worked on my own boats for my whole adult life and i’m an engineer so have at least the ability to understand most problems that arise. But i’m still learning and would never buy a boat without a survey, even if it was a new boat. Im confident that i could find 95% of what the surveyor will tell me, but its that 5% that i might miss that could cost me lots of $$$ or even my life. A survey is an insurance policy and also a useful bargaining tool that helps you get problem areas rectified before you own them.

My last survey cost almost $1000 but turned up items that allowed me to get s $10000 price reduction to address them so i think it was $1000 well invested.

[Tonali99]

Originally Posted by jim King

Survey? Who needs a survey? a little putty a little duck tape and you're on your way!

Don't forget the flex seal!!!

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by Tellie

If you think buying a boat is expensive, try doing it without a reputable survey.

Key point there "reputable"

I'm sitting aboard the H38 I purchased 3 days ago from a couple who have had sailboats for decades. Unfortunately the survey they got was from a surveyor who had his SAMS (?) accreditation withdrawn for "ethical reasons".

I know its pretty darn hard to get accreditation withdrawn.

He was also very, very fat and limited mobility to get in and inspect things.

So, there were issues they had with the boat that their surveyor didn't find and mind did. Luckily nothing super significant, but definitely surprising. Their comment was "wow, we've never seen a survey so thorough".

The other important thing I learned was LISTEN to the surveyor! During this boat buying journey I definitely found people that had stars in their eyes and discounted what the surveyor said to their dismay later.

Finally, I paid for a marine diesel mechanic to do a dedicated engine/generator survey. I did it three times as I went to survey three times on three boats and walked off the first two. The second one, the survey was over 10 minutes after it started due to the diesel mechanic.

I'm a gear head, I've built plenty of engines (mostly air cooled) and even fly (upside down) behind an engine I built. I would not have caught the diesel issue.

Worth every penny!

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by more

If you need a surveyor to bay used boat, used car, used airplane. don't bay, buy new.If you don't know how - have the skill to repair min 50% possible work on the boat don't bay use charter boat.
complex cruising Boat is expensive to maintain and repair. and boat needs continuous maintenance.

That's nonsense.

I've bought and sold a lot of aircraft and G-model 9xx Porsches but it has taken me 30 years to get my skill and knowledge to the point I'd do it without a PPI.

Its worth it just for another set of eyes for all but the most expert. Most people don't ever get to that level of expertise, and its probably not necessary for most people. That doesn't mean they should stick to buying new.

[sail sfbay]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

............I'm sitting aboard the H38 I purchased 3 days ago............Finally, I paid for a marine diesel mechanic to do a dedicated engine/generator survey..............

Congratulations on your new H38 sailboat!!

You are the first one on this forum to admit to getting a marine diesel engine/generator survey besides myself. I had one performed on a 1984 Symbol Sundeck 50 powerboat with two (2) 300 hp engines with nearly 2000 hours BEFORE I purchased the boat. Also I always inspect engine for leaks and engine fluids, filters and belts and confirm satisfactory operation during the survey. In the case of my 2004 Hunter 386 and 2005 Hunter 46 I did an engine survey and service immediately after the purchase.

[Hoodsail]

Sail SFBay, i am the 3rd person you now know of that paid for a pseudo-engine survey (compression check/oil analysis)...I wasnt able to get off work and boat was 2.5 hr drive away in Marblehead, MA. So my surveyor was on the boat during sea trial - end blew off heat exchanger, on this 1978 Westerbeke W30! Antifreeze & water everywhere! Oil milky brown! Sea trial stopped. BUT owner claimed engine was solid and water in oil was consequence of heat exchanger end blowing...He had Hansen Marine change the oil & install new heat exchanger end. My survey netted me another $3000 off the price for deck damage by a stanchion. Owner claimed engine rebuilt in late 1990's altho no receipts. Compression chk came back strong and almost identical across all 4 cylinders. So I "crossed my fingers" and bought her! Season was ending, as it was October in Massachusetts. Friend and I motor/sailed her to Guilford, CT thru the canal. Engine is strong as a moose still 5 yrs later. Oh, had her short hauled to insure the centerboard worked too...

[sail sfbay]

Originally Posted by Hoodsail

Sail SFBay, i am the 3rd person you now know of that paid for a pseudo-engine survey (compression check/oil analysis)............

Great post with story with a happy ending!!........3 total for engine surveys. They are cheap insurance and even IF a buyer does not get one during the buying process as a sale contingency just as a sea trail and marine survey, they are well worth it EVEN if you do it with a service (including fuel filter changes) AFTER purchase. Every boat I have purchased gets an engine serivce with filter changes and fuel biocide treatment after purchase because who knows how the previous owner took care of the engine(s).

Recently on a friend's new / used boat, which did not have an engine survey during or post purchase with a service, and the engine failed in the middle of the San Francisco Bay. I asked the owner whether he got an engine survey or serviced it and treated the fuel with biocide since he purchased it....NO. So I referred him to my fuel polisher to polish the fuel system, and 2 highly respected mobile diesel engine mecahnics to service the engine and replace all the fuel filters.

[Fore and Aft]

Tonali99 and a bit of builders bog. That's the pink stuff you buy from the hardware store. Sets well and can hide a million sins with a coat of paint over it. I found a large piece in one of the planks of the young couples yacht.
Cheers

[bensolomon]

Originally Posted by marcjsmith

not always. rescued my 88 moody that has been on the hard since 9/2012 and launched two weeks ago.


went sailing on her for the first time this past weekend. less than $10K invested spent so far. crap ton of sweat equity though... and likely another $5K to get her more ship/shape down below.


GRP boats are a far cry from wooden though....

Marc,
That is an awesome looking boat! You did an amazing job!

Ben

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Tonali99 and a bit of builders bog. That's the pink stuff you buy from the hardware store. Sets well and can hide a million sins with a coat of paint over it. I found a large piece in one of the planks of the young couples yacht.
Cheers

Ugh. Poor couple.
With so many nearly free fiberglass sailboats out there that need a lot of love but not lots of hull work, shouldn’t they get one of those and transfer equipment from the wooden boat or something? Cant see owning a wooden yacht at all unless you just love the idea and the work

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

...............
Finally, I paid for a marine diesel mechanic to do a dedicated engine/generator survey. I did it three times as I went to survey three times on three boats and walked off the first two. The second one, the survey was over 10 minutes after it started due to the diesel mechanic.

I'm a gear head, I've built plenty of engines (mostly air cooled) and even fly (upside down) behind an engine I built. I would not have caught the diesel issue.

Worth every penny!

Perhaps off topic but nevertheless germane to the thread; what was the diesel issue in this instance?

I'm asking in the hope of learning more about 'hidden' engine defects pertinent to small boat diesels.

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Perhaps off topic but nevertheless germane to the thread; what was the diesel issue in this instance?

I'm asking in the hope of learning more about 'hidden' engine defects pertinent to small boat diesels.

Engine cooling system did not hold pressure. Could have been something easy like a gasket, could have been something significant or have caused something significant elsewhere. Engine also had not been serviced (original hoses on 17 year old engine), injectors clearly not properly adjusted (fuel in exhaust).

Biggest issue was seller was completely unrealistic. Said if he fixed anything he'd have to raise the price because he had a note to pay off. Guess what buddy, your payoff numbers have nothing to do with the value of the boat.

I walked. Seller eventually agreed to pay my guy to do a diagnostic, and eventually do repair work that included welding up and resurfacing heat exchanger mating surfaces and some other odds and ends.

[Fore and Aft]

I started this thread on the 14th and 16 days later I visited the young couple again. There has been some progress, the bottom is sanded back to bare planks, all the putty has been removed from the seams, all the rotten areas below the waterline have had new timber scarphed in place, the rudder has been removed and stripped back to the shaft and tangs, a new propeller shaft and coupling has been ordered, the propeller reconditioned and that is it. The rotten deck, cabin have not been touched. The rotten timber mast is still standing and the engine was moved before proper measurements were taken for the new engine beds so that is going to be tricky to sort out for an amateur. They are still happy happy happy but the job list is still so long. One mistake they have made is paying full retail for all their materials they are buying. I am sure the local marine store is loving them. Things like the rudder they seem to be putting of due to inexperience I think. They need to get the new rudder built and they don't realise that is going to be a job in itself.
Cheers

[Talk Story]

To each their own, but you might be better off hiring a mechanic like many have mentioned as well as have a qualified mechanical person go through the ships systems. My last experience with a surveyor was a joke - he missed the part about the decks needing to be recored on the boat and some other major stuff. Fortunately I did not buy that boat, but I was not impressed with him. At any sign of work to do or wear and tear on the boat, he just punted 'seek professional advice' or have a mechanic look at it, etc. So for $1,200 I got 8 pages of inventory and 3 pages of his observations. Having drank the surveyor koolaid, I had him hired to survey the boat I did buy. After waiting 3 weeks for his precious appointment, he cancelled the day before because the boat was 'too much of a project' for him to evaluate. And this was with a long established surveying company - he may have even been the second generation of surveyors in that company.

Hire someone who turns a wrench and works on boats for a living, you will be far more informed than with a traditional survey.