Keel bolt nightmare

[Pete7]

Ok, please remove any liquid and fumes from the acetone before you let rip with the angle grinder, or rusty keel bolts will be the least of your worries.

Pete

[Ericson38]

Are those lag bolts or keel studs and washers/nuts ?

I would not in any case do this work in the water. One breaks off, then what ? Emergency haul out ? You know that the keel is quite a bit lighter submerged. During haul out, the stress on the attachment goes up significantly, since the partial flotation offset is gone.

[Dockhead]

I guess this is not really helpful to the particular case, but this is exactly why I have always thought that I can't afford inexpensive boats (as the Germans say, "Ich kann mir keine billige Schuhe leisten").


This is an egregious construction detail. You're doing to need to put the boat on the hard and remove the keel, and do this all over again. If you can get those bolts out/off without breaking them, you will be doing great. But then how do you redo them?


I don't know how it's done with iron keels, but lead keel usually have J bolts molded into the lead. So you have nuts and washers on top, not bolts. All this hardware needs to be best quality 316 stainless because it is almost impossible to replace the J bolts later without complete remaking the keel. How this is done I don't know -- are they regular threaded bolts? Or lag bolts? Will they be rusted into the keel?


Keels falling off boats is like wings falling off airplanes. You just can't risk it. I know this is not good news, but you really need to get the boat out of the water and do a proper job on this, preferably with help from a good surveyor, even if you have to fly him in.


Thread drift: Lest anyone be feeling smug about having a lead keel -- these have drawbacks as well. I just had mine sandblasted -- what a PITA! It creates hazardous waste, needs tenting, and is a total PITA to paint. Everything is a compromise.

[DirtRdEarl]

If they are not leaking, leave them alone. Keep searching for advice from an experienced yard/ mechanic.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by hd002e

The bolts are mild steel and not stainless. The keel is iron. When I called up Beneteau, they sent me A4 70 bolts as replacement, which I believe are 316 stainless.

Can we see the new bolts? Are they normal threaded bolts, or lag bolts?

[slug]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I guess this is not really helpful to the particular case, but this is exactly why I have always thought that I can't afford inexpensive boats (as the Germans say, "Ich kann mir keine billige Schuhe leisten").


This is an egregious construction detail. You're doing to need to put the boat on the hard and remove the keel, and do this all over again. If you can get those bolts out/off without breaking them, you will be doing great. But then how do you redo them?


I don't know how it's done with iron keels, but lead keel usually have J bolts molded into the lead. So you have nuts and washers on top, not bolts. All this hardware needs to be best quality 316 stainless because it is almost impossible to replace the J bolts later without complete remaking the keel. How this is done I don't know -- are they regular threaded bolts? Or lag bolts? Will they be rusted into the keel?


Keels falling off boats is like wings falling off airplanes. You just can't risk it. I know this is not good news, but you really need to get the boat out of the water and do a proper job on this, preferably with help from a good surveyor, even if you have to fly him in.


Thread drift: Lest anyone be feeling smug about having a lead keel -- these have drawbacks as well. I just had mine sandblasted -- what a PITA! It creates hazardous waste, needs tenting, and is a total PITA to paint. Everything is a compromise.

High class boats have lead keels


Ferrous keels are s huge compromise

https://www.constructionspecifier.co...uctural-steel/

Rust jacking , when rust gets into the keel hull joint , is so powerful that it can pull keel bolts thru the GRP laminate

The OP should drop the keel and replace the bolts

[gonesail]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Why do you think they are lags? and SS?

just a wrong guess .. I guess.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Can we see the new bolts? Are they normal threaded bolts, or lag bolts?

The Moody bolts look like this. 24mm from memory.

Originally Posted by slug

High class boats have lead keels, Ferrous keels are s huge compromise

https://www.constructionspecifier.co...uctural-steel/

Rust jacking , when rust gets into the keel hull joint , is so powerful that it can pull keel bolts thru the GRP laminate

The OP should drop the keel and replace the bolts

Yes, but there is price for all that lead. In addition, I suspect my two cast iron keels will be around long after I have departed this planet.

I think he should clean them up first and then lets see what they are like. Note, the nut didn't come off because the thread was good and the whole lot unscrewed from the keel.

[slug]

Originally Posted by Pete7

The Moody bolts look like this. 24mm from memory.



Yes, but there is price for all that lead. In addition, I suspect my two cast iron keels will be around long after I have departed this planet.

I think he should clean them up first and then lets see what they are like. Note, the nut didn't come off because the thread was good and the whole lot unscrewed from the keel.

As for removing keel bolts from a ferrous keel I have removed them while the keel is still attached to the boat

One at a time

This was accomplished by installing new nuts ..,then spot welding the new nut the bolt stud

Once the bolt is welded a socket Was
Fitted and the bolt backed out of the keel

Be alert ... life is not alway so simple

[hd002e]

Originally Posted by svHyLyte

A. The bolts are high strength steel not stainless;

B. The bolts are "Dacrotized", i.e. coated with a finish similar to galvanizing but thinner, smoother, stronger and more long lasting which is a European industry standard.

C. The look of your keel bolts is about what one would expect given their age. Note, however, that "rust" is about 600% greater than the volume of steel that has "rusted" or oxidized so looks are deceiving and not an indicator of the condition of the underlying bolt heads. The rust can be wire brushed off, if necessary the sides of the bolt heads can be ground somewhat to get flat surfaces that will accept a socket and they can be unscrewed. Ninety-nine point nine percent of the time they will come out clean and dry in which case the seal between the keel and the keelson is intact. Note that the bolts are torqued to about 150 lbs-ft so loosening them takes some effort, preferably a long "breaker bar". The new bolts should be inserted through new square washers with a modest amount of sealant on the 1/2" or so of the bolts above the threads--Not On The Threads! Once in place a torqued, cover the bolts and washers with a glob of wax from a toilet seal. That replaces the epoxy sealant that Beneteau used in the original build but will last longer as it isn't brittle but can easily be removed if one wishes to inspect the bolts at some future date.

D. BeneteauUSA has a technical bulletin on the replacement of the keel bolts which can be done, one-by-one, in a star patterns, with the boat in the water without difficulty. You can contact Ward Richardson at BeneteauUSA for a copy of the bulletin or PM me and I will email you a copy.

E. This subject has been discussed on the forum frequently. Do a search (above, right) on "Beneteau Keel Bolts" for the various discussions. The job isn't hard, just tedious


FWIW...

The replacement bolts I got from Beneteau are A4-70 and are stainless.

Thank you for your help, I sent you a PM and email about the Beneteau document.

Would you at any point consider welding something onto the bolt to get a grab or is that a bad idea on a fiberglass boat?

[hd002e]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Can we see the new bolts? Are they normal threaded bolts, or lag bolts?

I’ll try to put up a photo later on. The replacements I got from Beneteau are 20mm threaded rods with separate nuts.

[hd002e]

Originally Posted by Ericson38

Are those lag bolts or keel studs and washers/nuts ?



I would not in any case do this work in the water. One breaks off, then what ? Emergency haul out ? You know that the keel is quite a bit lighter submerged. During haul out, the stress on the attachment goes up significantly, since the partial flotation offset is gone.

You are absolutely right, the boat is already on the hard. I will have a go at it tomorrow. Here is my game plan (at least the first couple steps)

- asetone and ATF the area
- wire brush the bilt heads
- try to get a socket on there with a breaker bar
- focus on one bolt at a time
- If I can’t get a socket on, grind a rectangular head (but what to hold that with?!)
- apply heat, cold.
- drill at a 45 degree angle with a 2mm bit to get acetone ATF on the threads (as one of you suggested).
-.... open to other suggestions

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by hd002e

The replacement bolts I got from Beneteau are A4-70 and are stainless.

The replacements I got from Beneteau are 20mm threaded rods with separate nuts.

Huh? How can these both be true? A bolt has an integral head, the other sounds like a stud...

Jim

[hd002e]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Huh? How can these both be true? A bolt has an integral head, the other sounds like a stud...



Jim

Sorry about that. I should have written rods. Here is a photo to clarify.

[NYSail]

As was said I would use a wire brush to clean them PRIOR to adding penetrating oil. See what you’re actually dealing with.

Good luck!