Keel bolts... is this the end?

[jimbunyard]

Interesting what gets 'left out' when it can just as easily be included...

https://www.catalinadirect.com/index...-lead-keel.cfm




"Important safety message: It is critical you understand that the retrofit lag bolts will not be as strong as the original bolts once were. The original bolts were first bent in a "J" shape, then cast into the molten lead. Don't expect to add this kit to your boat, then sail it to the Bahamas! If the original keel bolts are degraded, the boat is not and will not be as seaworthy as it once was."

(Catalina Direct's emphasis)



If I were irresponsible, I would make this recommendation to the OP.

"Install this kit and hope for the best."


However, it could be installed and if done properly, might be a patch-up sufficient to get the boat to a place to do proper repairs, which must include dropping the ballast and inspecting the structure holding it on.

But, given the propensity of people with even the best of intentions to let 'good enough' ride (leaving aside the vicissitudes of life that might let such a patch-up job 'escape'), even that suggestion seems irresponsible.

If you keep the boat and repair it, if you use through bolts, member that the bottom hole has to be countersunk to receive the nuts and washers; if you cross drill, that there is a specific depth that has to met or exceeded, depending on the configuration of the ballast; and that for drilling long, straight holes a barefoot auger is the best choice.

[buzzstar]

I'd bolt ASAP. Really!

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

Now at least you've learned the value of a good pre-purchase hull survey.

Find a competent yard to do the repairs.

Or, assuming no comptent survey was done pre-purchase, have one done now...you could at least quantify the answer to what else needs to be done. If keel bolts are just the start then maybe walking away from the boat is the best option.

[Cheechako]

I cant think of how a surveyor is going to know. His safe position is "the keel needs to be rebedded and bolts replaced". He has no xray eyes. If you cant find a yard to drop the keel etc then just take it to florida. You can motor in all but benign sailing conditions and as such you are just a motor boat ....unless you think it isnt even up to that.

[jimbunyard]

This might be interesting for the OP...



http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ir-164093.html

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by coastalexplorer

...So not worth considering or arguing over?

Indeed, an important disclaimer they put there.

And I don't know how I ended up getting stuck being the defender of lag screws as keel fasteners, I simply mentioned it as a possibility, but I've encountered so many irrational responses its been hard to walk away from the conversation. Yours is a good example. Because this one particular kit, consisting of 5x half-inch lag screws, bares an obvious disclaimer that this ain't gonna be as strong as the original, it's not worth contemplating lag screws in general? It's the logical equivalent of saying, "this rope i saw at home depot only had a 200 pound safe working limit, so it's not even worth contemplating using rope to secure your boat."

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

Interesting what gets 'left out' when it can just as easily be included...

You caught me! You are on to my conspiracy.

[Mike Banks]

Here is what I would do. Whether or not you try it is entirely up to you.

You will need a tubular diamond saw which will just cover the bolt shaft. If you can not find one--you will have to make a tubular "mud" saw using water and sand or grinding paste--which will take ages to cut its way through a keel--but will still work. Better use the diamond saw--yard time is money.

Hire or buy a diamond saw. They are used a lot for taking rock or concrete samples--and often run on a small engine. It does not matter if it is a J bolt--the saw will cut straight through the curved part it if you take your time and keep plenty of water flowing. Cut right through the keel until the tubular saw emerges at the bottom of the keel.


Now you have a clean hole right through the Keel---perhaps a little larger than you would like--but the space can be filled with epoxy resin once your NEW extra quality bolts are fitted. Do not worry about the remains of the j-bolts embedded in the lead--they can do no more harm. If the thought of them bothers you--slide some heat shrink plastic over the shaft of the new keel bolt before inserting it--that will keep dissimilar metals safely apart..

While you are at it--you may wish to put a couple of extra bolts through the keel. On the underside of the keel drill out the lead so they you can put washers of good thickness and diameter under the bolts.

When you are done--you can bog them over with epoxy-resin mixed with cabosil. It is just for fairing purposes, some might like to pour molten lead over the bolt heads but I never liked interfering with the temper of some steels..With the epoxy bog, one can drive out the bolts to check or replace them later.

So--with the diamond saw to cut through the curve of the J-bolt and give you the system they should have used in the first place--you can keep your boat and sail it with confidence.

[Pauls]

The above advice on diamond saws is an absolute non-starter. Diamond abrasives work on hard materials which can be cut by the diamond and then washed away with the coolant flow. Try to use a diamond cutter on lead and it will be fully clogged with smeared on lead in 1/2 second. Not just the wrong tool for the job, a completely impossible tool for the job.

[Mike Banks]

Well thgen--use a metal sertrated saw and go for the diamond bit when you reach the curve of the J-Bolt.

By the way--diamond saws will cut anything--you will not clog it unless you push it hard and use insufficient water. AS long as the water feed is adequate it will work fine--just do not PUSH it. It needs the water pressure to flush away the particles of lead and to cool the abrasive drill surface If you have problems--add some detergent.

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by chris95040

Indeed, an important disclaimer they put there.

And I don't know how I ended up getting stuck being the defender of lag screws as keel fasteners, I simply mentioned it as a possibility, but I've encountered so many irrational responses its been hard to walk away from the conversation. Yours is a good example. Because this one particular kit, consisting of 5x half-inch lag screws, bares an obvious disclaimer that this ain't gonna be as strong as the original, it's not worth contemplating lag screws in general? It's the logical equivalent of saying, "this rope i saw at home depot only had a 200 pound safe working limit, so it's not even worth contemplating using rope to secure your boat."


You caught me! You are on to my conspiracy.

Hardly a conspiracy I'd bet.

You do realize that others can read all of both yours and my posts and reach their own conclusions?

Whilst I see no 'accusations' from me or anyone else, only rational responses, these statements of yours


"And finally, I believe Catalina used to have a kit for sistering old keel bolts with lag screws? Anyone have any info about that? I guess you'd just drill a pilot hole and crank in the lag screw, not sure how much depth you'd need before you had an adequate bite in the soft lead. Seems like a real cheap and easy fix, maybe the right rescue for an old boat that's about to get abandoned otherwise?"

'I think after doing a little engineering homework I’d be leaning toward ordering bronze lag screws from a specialty fastener shop if I were in this guy’s position."

do seem to indicate

"...how I [you] ended up getting stuck being the defender of lag screws as keel fasteners."



This section of the 'rules' might also be of interest to you...

"Our rules extend to all sections of the website including private messaging."


And that, I'm sure everyone'll be glad to know, will be the extent of my response to this somewhat-fabricated seeming non-issue, at least from my 'contributions'...

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

Hardly a conspiracy I'd bet.

You do realize that others can read all of both yours and my posts and reach their own conclusions?

Whilst I see no 'accusations' from me or anyone else, only rational responses, these statements of yours


"And finally, I believe Catalina used to have a kit for sistering old keel bolts with lag screws? Anyone have any info about that? I guess you'd just drill a pilot hole and crank in the lag screw, not sure how much depth you'd need before you had an adequate bite in the soft lead. Seems like a real cheap and easy fix, maybe the right rescue for an old boat that's about to get abandoned otherwise?"

'I think after doing a little engineering homework I’d be leaning toward ordering bronze lag screws from a specialty fastener shop if I were in this guy’s position."

do seem to indicate

"...how I [you] ended up getting stuck being the defender of lag screws as keel fasteners."



This section of the 'rules' might also be of interest to you...

"Our rules extend to all sections of the website including private messaging."


And that, I'm sure everyone'll be glad to know, will be the extent of my response to this somewhat-fabricated seeming non-issue, at least from my 'contributions'...

I offered the OP a series of options I’ve heard of. I mentioned the shortcomings in my understanding of how to apply such a fix. After having a few beers, you decided to tell me I was irresponsible to even discuss it.

Please, don’t ever talk to me again. Unless maybe you dry out.

[flyingfin]

See if you can heat a rebar with a welding torch to start the hole in the top of the keel, lead melts at just over 600 degrees. Then use the Catalina screws and coat them with Simpson Epoxy. I have seen holes cut into concrete and rebar set into the concrete with Simpson Epoxy.

I was at training at the Simpson Lab where we used a machine to try and pull the rebar out of the concrete the next day. The rebar pulled the concrete apart several inches away from where the rebar hole was cut, and it took over 5,000 pounds pull to cause that failure.

Go to Youtube and check out the Simpson Epoxy anchor videos being set in WATER!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSqwB27yrRE

And one of their dry anchors without epoxy pull test here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG2rpeE3QjY

[Motown]

Jesus guys...

as per Catalina (and others here)- lag screws won't be "fixing" anything. But apparently they may be an acceptable spare tire and get my unhappy ass to a capable boat yard?

Im hesitant to attempt a proper fix myself given the importance of the keel and the trend I see in sailboats- they turn into complete garbage when people are too cheap or too proud to say a project is beyond them. Who knows though, some of you guys seem to think this is a fairly straight forward job.

More questions-
keel stepped mast needs to be pulled before the keel is pulled
Why would the only bolts that have (visible) corrosion be midship

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

This might be interesting for the OP...

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ir-164093.html

Dunno if this interested the OP or not but it sure interested me - 12 or 15 pages of detailed repair, from a perfectionist, prepared to share all of his immense knowledge - thanks for the steer.

Now, more important: this argument between Jimb.. and Chris9.. So often these threads deteriorate into a slanging match between, let's say, 'experts' on the one hand and 'innovative amateurs' (like me for example, so no criticism implied) on the other, and so often it's due to a simple misunderstanding... 1. Jimb's advice (as always) sound and convincing; 2. Chris9's suggestion (once explained by his 'Walmart rope purchase' example) also perfectly logical, technically correct, and could be the best emergency solution in many situations (once we take the time to think logically and objectively about 'not all ropes being equal'). On this forum we need BOTH types of comment - one to get us out of a jam, the other to end up with a professional, top-quality repair - but we still need BOTH types of comment. The OP can easily choose which solution, he just needs to hear them all!

Clearly the argument began with a simple misunderstanding, as in so many other past threads on this forum. Both of you added value to this thread. Stick to your guns, Chris9, and cut the crap about never speaking to each other again, you two. Get over it - it happens on soooooo many of these technical threads, because it's just part and parcel of how the internet works. Quit bleating at each other, so we can all learn from BOTH of your ideas.

[Bill Seal]

for about 20 bucks each, McMaster-Carr has 5/8 0r 3/4 x 10 or 12 stainless lag bolts. (not those wimpy 1/2" from Catalina), Set them in epoxy, and head for a good yard. Maybe cut the heads off and thread them, drive them with jammed nuts, so you can drop the keel later.