Neighbors Boat Fire Seriously Damages My Boat

[cburger]

I reviewed my marina contract, these are a couple of the clauses I feel are relevant.

#1: Marina does not allow live aboards

#2: The marina shall not be liable or responsible for the care or protection of the vessel, including gear, equipment and contents.

#3: Licensee agrees to have his boat completely insured, including liability, collision and fire and extended coverage insurance. Each insurer shall waive subrogation. Each licensee will be responsible for damage he causes to other boats in marina or to structure of facilities thereof whether caused by negligence or not. The marina assumes no responsibilities for licensee’s boat or equipment.

#4: No charcoal fires or open fires of any kind will be allowed within the confines of the marina including any boat except within designated areas

#5: Marina assumes no responsibility for the safety of any boat at the marina and shall not be responsible for any loss or damage to person or property due to wind, waves, theft, collision, chafing, vandalism, fire or any other cause unless due to negligence of marina or its employees acting in the performance of their duties.

[cburger]

Haverstraw: One man severely burned in boat fire at marina


Boat torched at Haverstraw Marina | News 12 Westchester

[Cheechako]

Whomever has the deep pockets will pay IME. Doesn't mean it's right, it just is. The Marina are negligent in not enforcing their own rules. My ex wife was a paralegal. They worked on a case for 3 years that settled out of court finally for something like 3 million. It was a case brought against the power company, a car full of drunks ran off the road and hit a power pole. One was a paraplegic after the wreck. They sued the power company for having a pole there.

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by cburger

The marina requires in writing that boats are insured. Manager actually provided a copy of the questionnaire that was filled out by the owner of the offending boat with a space for the name of the insurance provider and stipulating certificate of insurance required, he lied indicating Boats US. As far as "the process" might of been nice to been contacted about whether any progress has been locating owner, nice to know that offending boat was salvaged in order to learn more about cause of fire, etc, etc.

So the marina didn't enforce proof of insurance and it's on their application form. I'd consider them negligent.

While in Berkeley a boat sank due to an oil leak. The marina put a floating boom around the vessel before it sank. They didn't enter the vessel to investigate. Probably because they assume liability.

The owner was overseas and apparently told the marina to go jump. Several months later the boat was still in the bottom.

Then the marina decided to enforce annual checks for insurance. We provided them with proof of insurance each year. Unfortunately they were too lazy / understaffed / forgetfull to check for all vessels.

Now we confirm with our marina that adjacent vessels have insurance. Trust no one.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

So the marina didn't enforce proof of insurance and it's on their application form. I'd consider them negligent.

.

Wrong.
- The contract has a requirement for boat owners to hold insurance.
- The contract does not have a requirement for the marina to enforce the insurance requirement.

These are two different things.

Very common for contracts to include clauses and requirements that are not verified. Of course, they did a basic verification by asking for the owner to list the insurance company.

Being a liveaboard may have been against the rules but was not the proximate cause of the incident, so that really doesn't play into it. This would be like saying he played music too loud during quiet hours. It's against the rules but in itself would have had no impact on the ensuing incident.

Have a wood burning stove would be an issue but only if you can prove the marina knew about it before the incident. Assuming the marina has a halfway competent lawyer, they won't be volunteering any such knowledge.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Surprise, Valhalla. "they can see if the insurer knows you.

Only if you authorize the insurance company to tell them. "


....

Not quite. In the US there is no legal protection of privacy in business Failing to ask for the insurance papers at all, might be "gross negligence". Failing to confirm the papers were real, might be simple negligence. Again, there are legal standards, best gone over with a local attorney. And if that costs $150, instead of just throwing in the glove? That's the OP's choice to make.

Lots of stuff can be done at a technical level but doesn't mean it is. Car insurance is a different ball game with a legal requirement to hold insurance. Boats have no such legal requirement (stupid to not have it but no legal requirement). As such, it's far easier to implement a requirement for insurance companies thru law requiring insurance companies to keep the state informed if insurance is dropped.

Also, true an insurance company can send out information without your approval but unless it's in direct relation to a loss, it's a great way to lose business. Google is a poor example. If you have an account with them (and you need one to activate an android device), you authorized them to track and sell your info.

But again, this is all irrelevant. There is no legal requirement for the marina to go to extraordinary lengths to confirm ongoing insurance coverage. As you've said, it's very easy to falsify coverage.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by cburger

I reviewed my marina contract, these are a couple of the clauses I feel are relevant.

#4: No charcoal fires or open fires of any kind will be allowed within the confines of the marina including any boat except within designated areas

Assuming this is word for word from the contract, even this could be a weak point. Assuming it's a typical cabin heater, it would not be an open fire, so while the cabin heater may have been defective, it might not violate the rule, which was likely intended to address BBQ's on the back deck (the marina holds the edge here as they wrote it so they are the first source to define what they intended).

Again, I feel for you but I wouldn't put out much money to a lawyer without some assurance, you get it back if they fail to win because your position is not strong. Claiming that they need to do a top security check on every boats insurance or it's negligence is just silly.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

SNIP

(And the number of uninsured drivers is about 1:4 in Florida, versus 1:10 in NY and many other states.


SNIP

Not sure where you got those numbers from or how current they are. I do know something about Florida in general and more to the point Miami-Dade County in particular. And what is true about Miami-Dade County is also true about several other large cities.

A significant portion of the population in these large cities are in the US illegally resulting in no papers including driver's license and vehicle registration; something required to get insurance. By some estimates (since there is no real way to get the exact number) 1/3 to 1/2 of the vehicles in Miami-Dade County are not street legal. Even in places like LA where anyone with a warm body can get a driver's license there are plenty of vehicles that are not street legal.

The same goes for lots of boats in Florida. Not only don't they have insurance they don't have current registration or sometimes even a clean title. I have probably spent time in a dozen marinas in Florida and none of them required what I would define as anything but a simple claim that the boat was insured. What they did require was a signature on what most lawyers would call a yellow dog contract (so named because even a yellow dog would not sign it). I will point that I don't frequent what I call high end marinas which I suspect have strict standards.

What I did notice is that all the contracts I have seen are several pages (like seven) long and most folks simply sign them with out reading them. Conventional wisdom is that any contract can be broken by a lawyer who is smarter than the lawyer that wrote the original contract. And some yellow dog contracts are thrown out instantly.

But the bottom line is as others have noted you need to be self sufficient and get the insurance you think you need; don't expect the marina to do it.

[cburger]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Wrong.
- The contract has a requirement for boat owners to hold insurance.
- The contract does not have a requirement for the marina to enforce the insurance requirement.

These are two different things.

Very common for contracts to include clauses and requirements that are not verified. Of course, they did a basic verification by asking for the owner to list the insurance company.

Being a liveaboard may have been against the rules but was not the proximate cause of the incident, so that really doesn't play into it. This would be like saying he played music too loud during quiet hours. It's against the rules but in itself would have had no impact on the ensuing incident.

Have a wood burning stove would be an issue but only if you can prove the marina knew about it before the incident. Assuming the marina has a halfway competent lawyer, they won't be volunteering any such knowledge.

Marina has a questionnaire that is filled out asking for the name of renter's insurance as well as indicating a Certificate of Insurance to be provided.

[sailjumanji]

YOU gambled on not having insurance, and it didn't pay off.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

YOU gambled on not having insurance, and it didn't pay off.

Ouch. It looks like cburger thought he had insurance. The issue is whether cburger and others here expected the marina to verify everyone's insurance. If the marina had verified everyone's insurance plan cburger and his neighbor would have had the opportunity to have insurance before the fire.

[old frog]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

Ouch. It looks like cburger thought he had insurance. The issue is whether cburger and others here expected the marina to verify everyone's insurance. If the marina had verified everyone's insurance plan cburger and his neighbor would have had the opportunity to have insurance before the fire.

Originally Posted by cburger

... To all who critisized the non insurance issue, the vessel was always insured, however I just bought out my partner and through an oversight the policy lapsed.

So it is the marina's (or other 3rd party entities) responsibility to ensure that someone has insurance? So much for personal responsibility and due diligence in protecting one's assets and property.

To me, it is a bit hypocritical to complain/allege that the cause boat and marina did not a adhere to the marina contract when the OP violated the lease terms.

Prudent counsel was offered in post #117.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by cburger

I reviewed my marina contract, these are a couple of the clauses I feel are relevant.

#1: Marina does not allow live aboards

#2: The marina shall not be liable or responsible for the care or protection of the vessel, including gear, equipment and contents.

#3: Licensee agrees to have his boat completely insured, including liability, collision and fire and extended coverage insurance. Each insurer shall waive subrogation. Each licensee will be responsible for damage he causes to other boats in marina or to structure of facilities thereof whether caused by negligence or not. The marina assumes no responsibilities for licensee’s boat or equipment.

#4: No charcoal fires or open fires of any kind will be allowed within the confines of the marina including any boat except within designated areas

#5: Marina assumes no responsibility for the safety of any boat at the marina and shall not be responsible for any loss or damage to person or property due to wind, waves, theft, collision, chafing, vandalism, fire or any other cause unless due to negligence of marina or its employees acting in the performance of their duties.

Sorry, but the above clearly states that it was YOUR responsibility to have insurance to protect your boat and financial interest. End of discussion.... whether you like it or not.

The marina is not liable or responsible for your loss; no lawyer will take on a case like this except on retainer after reading your contract.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

Ouch. It looks like cburger thought he had insurance. The issue is whether cburger and others here expected the marina to verify everyone's insurance. If the marina had verified everyone's insurance plan cburger and his neighbor would have had the opportunity to have insurance before the fire.

And does the marina have to check your fuel supply before pulling out of the slip...because if they did that for every boat before they were allowed to leave, far fewer boats would run out of fuel.

Maybe they should check your oil level too or have a rigger inspect the rigging. How about exercising the seacocks so they don't seize up. Lots of boats sink due to failed seacocks.

Where does the marina's responsibility end?

The marina made a reasonable effort to confirm insurance was present. For all we know, the other boat had insurance at the time the form was filled out.

It's not uncommon for marinas to have an insurance requirement but not mandate a copy of the insurance certificate be provided. We've stayed for multiple months at around a couple dozen marinas. We provided a copy of the insurance at only a small percentage of them, so it's not an industry standard for the marina to obtain a copy. Could they ask for it? Sure, but as with the silly examples above, it's not their role to ensure your neighbors have insurance and certainly not negligence.

[jeremiason]

I can't tell you how many times I have heard boaters talk about not carrying insurance on their boats... This is obviously an example of why carrying insurance is important.

I would suggest you find out if the other boat had insurance and the owner's information. The easiest way is to ask the Marina for a copy of his berthing agreement, if they will give you a copy... If not they are required to give you contact information or go to the local fire department and ask for a copy of the Fire Report.

If the owner of Fire Boat has insurance, call his insurance company and make a claim.

If the owner of Fire Boat doesn't have insurance, then you may be able to sue him. Even if he doesn't appear to have deep pockets, there are many avenues, like Home Owner's Liability Insurance, Umbrella Policies or at the worst, wage attachment.

It was recommended earlier that you find a Maritime Lawyer and I agree. They will be able to guide you through Maritime Laws, which can be very different from normal Tort Law.

Good Luck