Neighbors Boat Fire Seriously Damages My Boat

[cburger]

Would like to wish all the Cruisers Forum members a Happy New Year and thank the individuals here who attempted to make positive, helpful comments.

[sailjumanji]

Every marina we've contracted long term required a copy of our insurance coverage sheet. And contacted us at expiration to have a new sheet sent. I was always happy that they took this serious. Just for the reason you are encountering.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by cburger

The marina requires in writing that boats are insured. Manager actually provided a copy of the questionnaire that was filled out by the owner of the offending boat with a space for the name of the insurance provider and stipulating certificate of insurance required, he lied indicating Boats US. As far as "the process" might of been nice to been contacted about whether any progress has been locating owner, nice to know that offending boat was salvaged in order to learn more about cause of fire, etc, etc.

During my long sailing experience, each and every marina I have visited, asked to see and photocopied my 3rd party liability insurance certificate. Is USA less strict than the rest of the world?

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by meirriba

During my long sailing experience, each and every marina I have visited, asked to see and photocopied my 3rd party liability insurance certificate. Is USA less strict than the rest of the world?

My experience has been identical, EXCEPT for transient stays.

[Dirk Williams]

CBurger, sorry for your loss. Have to say these replys are flat amusing. If you own a home or other insured property on land, your home owners insurance MAY cover your loss, from damage.

I can share that two of my sailboats, are in fact covered by my home owners insurance. My ocean boat has its own policy.

Just offering potential solutions.

Good luck,

Dirk

[buzzstar]

Originally Posted by Dirk Williams

CBurger, sorry for your loss. Have to say these replys are flat amusing. If you own a home or other insured property on land, your home owners insurance MAY cover your loss, from damage.

I can share that two of my sailboats, are in fact covered by my home owners insurance. My ocean boat has its own policy.

Just offering potential solutions.

Good luck,

Dirk

You need to read the posts you reference. His Westsail 32 was apparently in the water. Ain't no small trailer boat covered under a typical homeowners policy. CBerger does have plenty of advice, but is recalcitrant for reasons not known to most, if not all, of us, the repliers.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"They made a reasonable attempt (in the legal sense) effort to verify he had insurance." Not really. It goes back to reasonable standards and due diligence.

Go to any car dealer and try to finance a car. They don't just ask you "How much do you make?" they run a credit check, AND now they commonly run an identity verification, also using an online service. They'll come back and ask you "Which of these streets did you live on?" "What color was your first car?" "Where were you born?" or other simple questions, to verify that you are probably you.

And if you give them a check for twenty grand, they'll call the bank or verify it online as well. they don't really care about what you signed on a paper. What you sign on the paper, is the basis for criminal fraud charges. Apply for a loan and sign a piece of paper saying you earn 100k when you really make 10k, and that's fraud, which the loan company may prosecute for if you don't pay up on time.

Poor analogy. The car dealer is out the money if you float a bad check and steal a car. It's not the marina's problem (legally) if the guy in the next slip damages your boat.

But the business you're dealing with? The marina can very easily call the insurer to verify that you have coverage. Some insurers will do the same thing the medical insurance industry does, they can let a "care provider" open a web page and check to see IF you are insured, and what the coverage is. It really is that simple: One phone call or web lookup, and they can see if the insurer knows you.

Only if you authorize the insurance company to tell them. We've had a few marinas actually ask for a copy but most even for stays of multiple months just have it as a line on their rules and never check it. If even a small percentage of marinas follow a similar approach, it's easy to claim they were following a reasonable approach that is not out of the norm.

In this day and age, taking a piece of paper that anyone can print by themselves, is simply negligent. You can take my word on it, because I've got a piece of beautifully engraced parchment with a gold seal in the corner that says it is a royal warrant from Elizabeth Regina herself, her Imperial Brittanic Majesty, authorizing me to enter into treaties and make commercial dealings on her behalf. See? It's right on this piece of paper. (Ahuh.)

You just proved my point. that your average marina isn't the FBI and doesn't need to pretend they are the FBI. The marina could have easily taken it the next step and got that piece of paper and the guy could have printed up a very official looking piece of paper that meant nothing.

Similarly, he could have taken out insurance, got the slip and then canceled the insurance without letting the marina know.

Where does it end? Is the marina supposed to call on a weekly basis to verify insurance?

This is why the airport idiots ask for a federal "SecureID" in the US. Too many great fakes are too easily printed. Ask any kid who "really is 22!" when they show ID at a bar. Been that way for a very long time. Airports in the USA only ask for a passport (not other federal ID possibly with a military exception but not sure on that) if you are on an international flight. Domestic flights can still use a state drivers license.

Reality is marina insurance requirements have zero to do with protecting boaters from other boaters. The marina's insurance wants to know they have someone to go after if the marina facilities get damaged. If that burning boat takes out $50k worth of floating docks, they want to be able to go after the owner of the boat that burned the docks to cover the damages. The insurance company adds that requirement and failure to abide by it is an issue between the marina and it's insurance company.

[Diesel.]

What a mess! I am truly sorry for your predicament, but consider: he was a live aboard and was not insured. Likely this was because he was a bit down on his luck before his boat was lost.

Lawyers and insurance companies are businesses that are of course in business to make money - bottom line. The insurance company business is all about collecting premiums, nobody will ever tell you that you are underinsured except your agent, and only then if he's worth his salt. The insurance company will gladly take your money and then deny the claim - for that is the very nature of their business. Lawyers are all about the fees. I've seen so much frivolous litigation that should never have been filed, but it was simply because fees are the very nature of their business - as simple as that!

Thus turns the Wheel of Pain. His boat is lost, he is likely homeless and now owes money that he does not have to people that he cannot pay. He was irresponsible, yes! and he was a fool. But your life must go on.

My advice is see what possible recourse you have and if it looks like it goes to court then just walk away. By the time this mess gets dragged through the courts you will likely have made better use of your time and money by simply hauling out and making the necessary repairs yourself. And if you do not have an insurance agent - please get a good one. Oftentimes my neck was saved by my agent adding things on the policy that I felt frivolous but later indeed saved the day.

FWIW, Happy New Year and good luck.

[JPA Cate]

Diesel, that's an interesting point you make. A long time ago, a bunch of visiting yachts were struck by an out of control Navy ship in La Paz, BCS. What happened was that the guys who just set about fixing their boats, sucked up the costs, but got on with their lives went on to have lovely cruises; the guys who waited on insurance wound up going back to the US, tails tucked behind their legs.

Ann

[old frog]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Diesel, that's an interesting point you make. A long time ago, a bunch of visiting yachts were struck by an out of control Navy ship in La Paz, BCS. What happened was that the guys who just set about fixing their boats, sucked up the costs, but got on with their lives went on to have lovely cruises; the guys who waited on insurance wound up going back to the US, tails tucked behind their legs.

Ann

Perhaps it is just me getting old & cranky, but from my perspective it appears that the independent & self sufficient sailor is nearing placement the endanger species list.

[SFS]

I think you could write that sentence and replace the word sailor with just about any noun representing a person, and still have the sentence be accurate. Being responsible for one's own experience is an increasingly rare point of view these days.

[old frog]

Originally Posted by SFS

I think you could write that sentence and replace the word sailor with just about any noun representing a person, and still have the sentence be accurate. Being responsible for one's own experience is an increasingly rare point of view these days.

So true.

[hellosailor]

Surprise, Valhalla. "they can see if the insurer knows you.

Only if you authorize the insurance company to tell them. "

Not quite. In the US there is no legal protection of privacy in business relationships, and HIPAA doesn't apply here either. Your insurer can talk to whoever they want, and like most companies, they are making as much money as they can, every day, by selling your information as a routine part of business.

Got an Android phone? Google sells you. Got a landline? The telco sells you. Got any magazine subscriptions, made any donations to charity? They all sell you. These days it all gets into datamining, but a simple name on a list used to sell anywhere from a few cents to four bucks a pop, sold or just "rented" for one time use.

My point still stands, the OP needs to discuss this with a lawyer who is familiar with what the courts have upheld as standard in his own venue. What you or I think in our venues doesn't matter, and you're apparently not intimate with New York standards.

In Florida, the state DMV has said it is "technologically impossible" to make sure that drivers don't cancel their insurance immediately after registering a car. In contrast, NYS has for decades solved that problem. Every night every insurer sends a list of every policy that has been cancelled to the state DMV, who then mail out a "Dear Driver" letter. And, also immediately send their license plates out to the marshal's service with instructions to tow and impound immediately. Funny thing...they don't need to do it every hour of the day, they just do it daily, all automated computer processing, and what one state says is impossible, the other does without any fuss. (And the number of uninsured drivers is about 1:4 in Florida, versus 1:10 in NY and many other states.

Somewhere in between "impossible" and "routine business" there are many fine lines, and imposing a burden on marinas to at least make one minimal confirmation, isn't placing a high burden on them.

You can say it is all hopeless, but I've seen standards for "reasonable" applied in New York. In various parts of New York. If the "landlord" in a commercial rental situation makes a written claim about his goods (i.e. no liveaboards are allowed) then in NY you've got legal precedents for "reasonable expectation" "negligence" and other standards.

Failing to ask for the insurance papers at all, might be "gross negligence". Failing to confirm the papers were real, might be simple negligence. Again, there are legal standards, best gone over with a local attorney. And if that costs $150, instead of just throwing in the glove? That's the OP's choice to make.

[Dirk Williams]

My home owners covers two of my boats, on shore AND on the water.

all I'm really interested in insurance for, is for this liability.

If my actions, or any of my boats caused damage, I want it covered.

it's called, Being Responsible, for omes actions, and in some instances ones in-actions

It's not the responsibility of the marina to,fix his boat.


Unfortunately, Mr. burger will likely end up fixing this, out of pocket.


Dirk

[JPA Cate]

There are many things in life that aren't "fair." I'm thinking that cburger's costs will be out of pocket, but his boat was so tippy top, I don't know that he can help himself: he'll have to do her back up, to live with himself. He may be fortunate and get some help along the way. I hope so. But nobody ever promised us a rose garden, so to speak, and sometimes we just have to accept the blows and carry on as best we can.

Ann