New Sails for a Beneteau 57

[Nightdiver]

Thanks Pacey,
Im actually looking at the Hydra Net but it appears to be a very expensive option.

Jeff

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Nightdiver

Thanks Pacey,
Im actually looking at the Hydra Net but it appears to be a very expensive option.

Jeff

Our boat, which likely has slightly higher loads than yours, has 10 year old (50,000 miles roughly) Hydranet sails that were built in France with tri-radial panels. The main is fully battened with 6 battens, has a large roach and is 80 square metres. The jib is a self-tacking blade and is 35 square metres.

Both sails are badly stretched. The jib is in better shape, but the leach is hooked and there are some creases due to uneven stretching. The main is blown out between the battens. Both sails are suffering from rotted thread and webbing and need to be replaced prior to next offshore season in 6-8 months (assuming local COVID border closures relax slightly).

We will not be replacing with Hydranet: the material is too expensive and the designed shape does not last very long. The Dyneema threads are woven and as the weave straightens the cloth naturally stretches, regardless of the threads themselves. You may as well get pure Dacron sails and save the Hydranet premium. However, our Hydranet sails are very hard wearing and we have no worries about the cloth ripping.

For better performance and reasonable life (though likely not 10 years) we are ordering laminated sails in tri-radial cut with cruise features. Surprisingly, our local (New Zealand) North and Doyle lofts are not substantially more expensive than mail order sails from Asia, based on laminated materials. Hydranet (or off-brand so-called equivalent) and Dacron sails were substantially cheaper from the Asian lofts.

[Nightdiver]

Thanks a lot fxykty,
That is really helpful. I was wondering about the Hydra net. From your experience it doesnt sound like it is worth the expense.
I'm a little leery of the laminated sales. I've heard a lot of cons about them.
Jeff

[dfelsent]

Our jib, hydranet, is about 8 years old and I’m guessing 20k + miles.
Like all sails it requires maintenance. Stitching is still solid, but the UV cover needed replacement.
Shape is still good for cruising.

[Pacey16]

Fxykty I am getting quotes for sails at the moment and will probably just have them made crosscut out of Fibercon AP. I have enquired with North to see what they would charge for 3Di endurance, would be interested to hear what type of laminate you are looking at and a rough cost in comparison to quality dacron

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Nightdiver

Thanks a lot fxykty,
That is really helpful. I was wondering about the Hydra net. From your experience it doesn't sound like it is worth the expense.
I'm a little leery of the laminated sales. I've heard a lot of cons about them.
Jeff

Several sailors on CF have raved about Hydra net. It is hard to evaluate the cost/benefit over pure Dacron. Others are completely sold on laminated sails cut in a triradial configuration.

Personally I would order either plain old Dacron cross cut sails or Dacron cloth with Warp orientation cut in a tri-radial sail, for cruising.

For my own sails I have cross cut Dacron cruising sails and Membrane string sails for racing. Bought from Asian sail lofts.

[Joli]

The rig on a Beneteau 57 is to big for Dacron, it'll stretch uncontrollably. Your option is hydrant our laminate, both have plus and minuses. We went with hydrant because we wanted a woven fabric because it doesn't shrink, mildew from inside the laminate or de laminate. So far it's holding up ok, last year we sailed about 10,000 miles. This year we will only do 5,000 or so (hard to go places when the borders are closed).
Or rig is 93' so a bit larger then the Beneteau but we're in the same ballpark. We're hoping to get 25,000 miles from the sails.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Joli

The rig on a Beneteau 57 is to big for Dacron, it'll stretch uncontrollably. Your option is hydrant our laminate, both have plus and minuses. We went with hydrant because we wanted a woven fabric because it doesn't shrink, mildew from inside the laminate or de laminate. So far it's holding up ok, last year we sailed about 10,000 miles. This year we will only do 5,000 or so (hard to go places when the borders are closed).
Or rig is 93' so a bit larger then the Beneteau but we're in the same ballpark. We're hoping to get 25,000 miles from the sails.

I agree that Dacron is not as good as a modern fabric, for any size boat.

But we must remember that big boats (including Joli) had Dacron sails for years. Newer weaves of Dacron, combined with triradial construction, makes today's Dacron sails much better the Dacron sails from 1980. Dacron won't hold shape for as many years and is heavier. Hydra net will stretch less and may be lighter. But Dacron is still viable and cost effective. A standard Dacron Tri-Radial Main made from warp oriented cloth could be made for $5000 or less for a 57' boat, (ordered from an Asian Loft).

Personally I think that someone who owns a 57' boat would consider better sails, and a modern Laminate, in tri radial or membrane construction, will provide better horsepower and lighter weight.

[Joli]

I'm not sure a Beneteau 57 could get a full year of hard sailing from Dacron Asian sails without recutting. The Dacron I've seen from those lofts was pretty stretchy.

Yes our boat had Dacron sails way back when but there was also a lot of recutting. If you don't mind huffing around 250# mainsails back to the loft every weekend, Dacron is probably ok.

We like hydrant but it's moving. It's deeper, slightly draft aft and rounder in one year. Our main before this was spectra laminate tri radial. It too went round and also mildewed between the mylar.

I wouldn't buy Dacron for the boat in question but maybe price is the driver, not performance or longevity.

[Fbfisher]

Have you talked to Oliver at UK Marina Del Rey, CA. He’s local to you, knowledgeable and straight forward. My slip neighbor just put on an X Drive furling main and 150 genoa. The performance improvements are remarkable. The longevity rating is comparable to Dacron and the difference in price did not seem worth the sacrifice in performance. I’m considering replacing my 15 year old 140 Genoa with X Drive so I can keep up with him.

[wingssail]

I am not defending Dacron as the best choice for a 57' boat, but the choice for an owner should be based on fact, not hyperbole.

Originally Posted by Joli

I'm not sure a Beneteau 57 could get a full year of hard sailing from Dacron Asian sails without recutting. The Dacron I've seen from those lofts was pretty stretchy.

I've worked with several Asian Saillofts and the cloths they use are the exact same sailcloths used by lofts from the US, UK, Europe, Australia, NZ or anywhere else. Cloth from Dimension, Contender, Challenge, Bainbridge, for example. If you order a sail they give you a choice of sailcoth. You get what you pay for.

Yes our boat had Dacron sails way back when but there was also a lot of recutting. If you don't mind huffing around 250# mainsails back to the loft every weekend, Dacron is probably ok.

This is definitely an exaggeration. I'm not sure what you mean by hard sailing, but a good Dacron sail, of the appropriate weight, can hold shape and be usable for several years of normal cruising or club racing.

.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I am not defending Dacron as the best choice for a 57' boat, but the choice for an owner should be based on fact, not hyperbole.

Wing, I respect your sailing ability and you have plenty of sea miles, you've certainly been around. But the loads on a 60' boat are substantially different them they loads on a 40' boat. Dacron is not the right material for that size boat IMO. I don't believe a Dacron main would last one year on our boat.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Joli

Wing, I respect your sailing ability and you have plenty of sea miles, you've certainly been around. But the loads on a 60' boat are substantially different them they loads on a 40' boat. Dacron is not the right material for that size boat IMO. I don't believe a Dacron main would last one year on our boat.

Well, I don’t always agree with Wingsail but clearly do in this case. You not only exaggerate things but you also sidestep when confronted for it.

You stated the Chinese shops use inferior Dacron. You stated Dacron sails need recutting every weekend. BS of-course and countering with another argument, even one I agree with, does not remove the BS you came up with before.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Joli

Wing, I respect your sailing ability and you have plenty of sea miles, you've certainly been around. But the loads on a 60' boat are substantially different them they loads on a 40' boat. Dacron is not the right material for that size boat IMO. I don't believe a Dacron main would last one year on our boat.

What Joli is saying as that as sails get bigger, the loads go way up, and you can't keep making the cloth thicker forever. That means that big boats stretch their Dacron sails much more than smaller ones. This is true (and by the way, this is an advantage of ketch rigs).


I like laminate sails and would use them on any size boat, but I'm really with Joli what concerns a single masted vessel of the size of the OP's. I just wouldn't consider woven sails, not for a minute.


And then on top of everything else, the OP has in-mast furling. Dacron sails with adequately heavy cloth won't work well in in-mast furling and will work worse and worse as they inevitably stretch, which makes them bunch up in the furler -- you can even get jams. Laminate sails transform the reliability and operation of in-mast furling, because they are thinner and more flexible, and don't stretch at all.



So YMMV, but I would never consider woven sails even for a second, for a boat that size. When I bought my boat, she had very high quality Hood Dacron sails, made with some kind of legendary Dacron which you can't get anymore. They were, however -- stretched. Going to carbon-technora laminate sails totally transformed the boat -- by far the best thing I ever did to this boat. And now 5 years and probably 20,000 miles later, the shape is still just like new, not the slightest mildew or delamination or any other kind of problem. YMMV, but I strongly recommend looking at something like this.


Concerning WHERE to have them made -- some people get good results with the Asian lofts, but the labor is not necessarily the biggest part of the cost of good sails for a big boat. I used a great Solent sailmaker known for his racing sails. The cost was not all that much different from what an Asian sailmaker would have charged, and I got to see them being made, got my boat specifically measured for them, got them carefully checked and fitted to my boat. Having a real sailmaker you can look in the eye is very valuable.

[Nightdiver]

Wow, guys. Lots of good information in this thread. My Beneteau is 15 years old and appears to have the original Dacron sails, and they are definitely stretched. But the main is not an in mast furled sail. It is old fashioned slab reefing.
After reading all of this, I'm really tending towards the XDrive carbon laminate.