Ok how screwed am I?

[er9]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

This sounds not unlike my issue sorry but I can't find a 'before' photo.

PS photos of what you are dealing with would be good..

PPS... good luck!

yeah as far as i can tell my bulkheads are also not tabbed to the floor only the hull sides above the floor level.

wow! 10cm is a LOT of movement.

better photos will come in the morning. its 3am and cant sleep or take pics...too dark.

[er9]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Hi, again, er9,

I could be wrong in your instance, but we had a structural failure in our first "Insatiable", and it had to be fixed in the water, because that shape is the one the boat naturally assumes in the water, with the keel pulling down.

There are many forces involved, and it is too complicated for simple me, and I hope you get it sorted.

Good on ya for facing up to it. It takes some gumption.

Ann

ok interesting. i would prefer to fix it in the water if thats possible as it will save me yard storage costs. i could pull my mast and refloat my boat and fix things at my own pace without having to rush.

my first big challenge is going to be trying to find someone local who is qualified to give me expert advice...once i know what to do i will feel so much better.

[Suijin]

It's called a "panting rod". It's purpose is to make the coachroof a structural element to the boat. And yes, its looseness/failure is directly responsible for the bulkhead separation.

As the rig on a boat comes under strain it wants to pull the sides of the hull together. If the deck is not anchored to the keel of the boat it will bow up and allow the sides to flex inwards. If the deck is anchored it works to hold the hull sides apart and prevent this distortion. It does not take much to beak tabbing...a centimeter or two, over time, will do it.

The name comes from wooden ship days when a boat would "pant" at sea, with the boat appearing to breath as the hull distorted in cycles.

Your first order of business should be to repair the rod and it's ends. If it's anchored to the mast step and the step is on the keel backing plate you may well have experienced dissimilar metal corrosion. When you repair the step make sure that dissimilar metals are insulated from each other. A thin sheet of G10 for example interleaved between parts, and lots of Tef-gel during assembly.

The primary function of the panting rod is to keep the coachroof from lifting during stress cycles, so ensure that the design is adequate to do that. The original design may not have been robust enough, aside from it's deterioration. Nothing lost in making it stronger than it was from the factory.

Then repair the tabbing at the bottom of the bulkhead. Anything you can do to get it back down to it's original position will be a good thing. The bulkhead may not be tabbed to the bottom of the hull; there may be a metal plate hidden in/behind some woodwork that anchors the bulkhead through the floor to a stringer. Not uncommon to have these fail as well from corrosion.

This is not a "life or death" thing for the most part, except if you're going offshore, but it's something you want to remediate properly if only to prevent further damage to the bulkhead and cabinetry.

No reason you can't repair this in the water, although you'll almost certainly need to pull the stick to repair the mast step. Doing so might allow the bulkhead to settle back in contact with the floor. I suspect that after the rod failed that proper tensioning/tuning of the rig became difficult, and getting proper tension contributed to the lifting if not causing it outright if the boat was not sailed hard.

[TeddyDiver]

As Suijin said above !

[er9]

Originally Posted by Suijin

It's called a "panting rod". It's purpose is to make the coachroof a structural element to the boat. And yes, its looseness/failure is directly responsible for the bulkhead separation.

As the rig on a boat comes under strain it wants to pull the sides of the hull together. If the deck is not anchored to the keel of the boat it will bow up and allow the sides to flex inwards. If the deck is anchored it works to hold the hull sides apart and prevent this distortion. It does not take much to beak tabbing...a centimeter or two, over time, will do it.

The name comes from wooden ship days when a boat would "pant" at sea, with the boat appearing to breath as the hull distorted in cycles.

Your first order of business should be to repair the rod and it's ends. If it's anchored to the mast step and the step is on the keel backing plate you may well have experienced dissimilar metal corrosion. When you repair the step make sure that dissimilar metals are insulated from each other. A thin sheet of G10 for example interleaved between parts, and lots of Tef-gel during assembly.

The primary function of the panting rod is to keep the coachroof from lifting during stress cycles, so ensure that the design is adequate to do that. The original design may not have been robust enough, aside from it's deterioration. Nothing lost in making it stronger than it was from the factory.

Then repair the tabbing at the bottom of the bulkhead. Anything you can do to get it back down to it's original position will be a good thing. The bulkhead may not be tabbed to the bottom of the hull; there may be a metal plate hidden in/behind some woodwork that anchors the bulkhead through the floor to a stringer. Not uncommon to have these fail as well from corrosion.

This is not a "life or death" thing for the most part, except if you're going offshore, but it's something you want to remediate properly if only to prevent further damage to the bulkhead and cabinetry.

No reason you can't repair this in the water, although you'll almost certainly need to pull the stick to repair the mast step. Doing so might allow the bulkhead to settle back in contact with the floor. I suspect that after the rod failed that proper tensioning/tuning of the rig became difficult, and getting proper tension contributed to the lifting if not causing it outright if the boat was not sailed hard.

Thanks Suijin....couple of questions. Is it possible that the failure of the panting rod allowed the bulkead to move up and down and crush the floor under the bulkhead downwards giving the illusion the bulkhead is lifting as the floor settles lower?

attaching some better pics of the area of tabbing on this main bulkhead, that i could access and with the exception of one small area a few inches wide it appears all of the tabbing, port and starboard is intact and in its original position from the floor to deck side level.

also the bulkhead comes up and makes has an 'L' shaped cutaway...this cutaway rest under and is attached to the undersides of the deck sides (see pic). My assumption is that this feature help keep the bulkhead from lifting enough to tear away but i may be completely wrong on this one...just an un-educated guess.

i would add that the flooring in the area of the mast running from port to starboard has a seamline and generally looks poorly supported underneath with a slight gap between the underside of the floor and the stringers. i can feel shims of some sort under the floor in this area.

also attaching pic of step in its current condition. you can see the panting rod completely broken free. i broke it away but it was so corroded i think it had failed many, many years ago. its a stainless panting rod with aluminum step base.

to make matters much worse the mast base had been flooded with fresh water when i got her and in this mess were corroded, possibly exposed wires coming from the mast...and to add insult to injury there was a bonding wire on the mast step that had broken free who knows how long ago.

to add we have sailed her pretty hard a couple of times since iv'e had her but not offshore. i absolutely do want to take her offshore one day when she is ready. so i need to do this right.

[old frog]

Yours is not an uncommon problem or repair.

As others have said, the purpose of the rod is to transmit the cabin top upload to the mast step. When the rig is loaded, there is compression load on the mast step, inward loads on the chainplates & uplift on the cabin top. The rod is the attachment between the cabintop & mast step to keep things in relative position. Normally, with the rig unloaded (boat at rest), there is minimal tension on the rod.

From the outside looking in, with the deterioration of the mast step, the lower rod attachment has permitted the cabin top uplift, or slight mast step compression.

My suggestion forward is to:

1. Leave the boat in the water is possible as, typically, the is the boat's normal loading & localized hull movement is not uncommon when a boat is blocked ashore.
2. Upstep the mast. Inspect the mast heel to determine how much, if any needs to be cut away.
3. Fabricate a new mast step & laminate/bolt into place taking into place taking into account any reduction in the mast heel shortening.
4. Remove any bulkhead mechanical fastenings may have moved & repair wood as/if needed.
5. Cut away the separated fillet bonds.
6. Rig a come along or similar between the new mast step & upper tie rod attachment. Gently, and do not over do it & go very gently, tighten the come along to see if the cabinetry & bulkhead head will return to their original position. If so, fasten & re-laminate the fillets as needed (use bi or try axial fabric with mat (mat against the laminated surfaces) vice the original combo mat).
7. Restep the mast & tie rod assembly, rig & tune the rigging.
8. Continue to enjoy the boat.

Again, yours is not that uncommon of a problem. The worst part is the labor & yard costs. The work scope is well within that or a competent yard &/or rigging shop.

Good luck with it.

ON EDIT, when you have it apart, given the boats age, pull the chain plates & bolts to check their & the bulkead's condition & have the rig inspected by a rigger. Check with your insurance carrier/agent with a clean rig inspection report. There might be an insurance savings.

[Dougtiff]

You can replace the compression rod with rigging wire and a turnbuckle, the wire does not need to be attached to the mast step, it can be attached to the mast just above the cabin sole, this is how Larry Pardey of Serafin/Talsein fame rigged his boat, and that was with a wooden mast, this can all be done in the water.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by er9

Thanks Suijin....couple of questions. Is it possible that the failure of the panting rod allowed the bulkead to move up and down and crush the floor under the bulkhead downwards giving the illusion the bulkhead is lifting as the floor settles lower?

i would add that the flooring in the area of the mast running from port to starboard has a seamline and generally looks poorly supported underneath with a slight gap between the underside of the floor and the stringers. i can feel shims of some sort under the floor in this area.

Based on the pictures and your description of the sole, it is entirely possible that the floor is the culprit and that while your panting rod is shot it was not actually the cause of the bulkhead separation. If the sole is poorly supported I would probably start there, working to level it out and reinforce it appropriately. It may close the gap a bit or entirely. Either way you still need to fix that mast step and rod. To me it looks like it was immersed in bilge water repeatedly. Certainly you want to fix that cause too.

The expensive part is going to be the new mast step which will have to be custom fabricated. You can probably improve on the design along the way in consultation with a metal fabricator. As Old Frog mentioned you can just raise it if you need to cut off part of the mast end back to good metal.

Here's a picture of my old mast step and after it was repaired (bottom cut away and replaced with G10 wedge and stainless plate).





You can attach the cabin top to the mast with a turnbuckle and brackets, but a panting rod makes a nice handhold.

[Cadence]

er9,
If I understand you correctly, your biggest problem is the mast step. If the bulkhead tabbing to the hull is in tact and it is not tabbed to the sole some movement between the bulkhead and sole was probably anticipated. I have a suspicion once you re step the mast and adjust tensioning all will fall back into place. I'm normally a pessimist so I hope that makes you feel better.
Best wishes.

[er9]

Originally Posted by Cadence

er9,
If I understand you correctly, your biggest problem is the mast step. If the bulkhead tabbing to the hull is in tact and it is not tabbed to the sole some movement between the bulkhead and sole was probably anticipated. I have a suspicion once you re step the mast and adjust tensioning all will fall back into place. I'm normally a pessimist so I hope that makes you feel better.
Best wishes.

HA! much better thank you. Thats what i'm hoping for. It may not end up being as bad as i feared but still serious problem.

[Calif.Ted]

I know a rigger in Orange County and San Diego that I'd recommend, he's pretty booked most of the time, but might be able to evaluate. I trust him and I can't think of anyone else I'd recommend in the vicinity.
A friend with a Bristol with similar problem cut a couple inches off mast, had new step fabricated and was able to make up some of mast lost in the new step.

[er9]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Based on the pictures and your description.

Fixed the fresh water leak...you are correct it was repeatedly immersed in water leaking from the two 52 gal fresh water tanks, probably rain water as well. The bilge pump was not working so it just sat in 6" of water for what appears to be quite a long time. i'm sure there was salt in there as well. i did fix the leaks though and apart from rain water getting in once and a while the bilge is dry.

the base of the mast looks surprisingly in good shape with the exception of peeled paint and a thin layer of corrosion but i'm prepared to cut it back two or three inches. wont know until i pull it. My biggest concern is going to be getting the old step out. it looks like i will have to chisel and grind it out. There is one keel bolt coming through it im hoping will come off with little issue.

I feel like i should get the step and panting rod fixed first as was suggested and maybe see where i end up. hopefully with some gentle tugging with a come along as old frog suggested the gap will close. if not i will tackle the flooring after so long as i know the bulkhead is where its supposed to be and will not move anymore.

nice mast step by the way. i know a good machine shop who can do the work for me the hard part will be getting the specific profile and step dimensions correct. I probably will not be able to get the old one out in one piece...and its so corroded i'm not sure it would be of much use.

i'm hoping when all is said and done i can get this fixed for under $2500. i will be extatic if so....hoping it will be under $1500 but that may be wishfull thinking. i'm guessing the step alone will cost me $750 - $1000

[er9]

Originally Posted by Dougtiff

You can replace the compression rod with rigging wire and a turnbuckle, the wire does not need to be attached to the mast step, it can be attached to the mast just above the cabin sole, this is how Larry Pardey of Serafin/Talsein fame rigged his boat, and that was with a wooden mast, this can all be done in the water.

very interesting i did not know this. i love that boat. i will have to look into this a bit more.

[er9]

Originally Posted by old frog

Yours is not an uncommon problem or repair.

.

thanks oldfrog...some great advice that will be very usefull.

[er9]

Originally Posted by Calif.Ted

I know a rigger in Orange County and San Diego that I'd recommend, he's pretty booked most of the time, but might be able to evaluate. I trust him and I can't think of anyone else I'd recommend in the vicinity.
A friend with a Bristol with similar problem cut a couple inches off mast, had new step fabricated and was able to make up some of mast lost in the new step.

could you PM me his info? thank you i am having trouble finding someone in the los angeles area.