Paint Vs Gelcoat (older boat)

[clockwork orange]

Originally Posted by Suijin

According to the manufacturer you can roll and tip Awlgrip but not Awlcraft. I believe Awlgrip is basically the same as Imron and that Awlcraft is acrylic but I may have it wrong.

Awlcraft will give you the hardest, best looking finish but is not as buffable and repairable as Awlcraft. I’m sure you can find an automotive paint that is largely equivalent to Awlgrip and cheaper, with some research.

That said, if you’re paying someone to do it the cost of materials is a fraction of the cost. Your best bet is to find a good painter and let them use what they recommend instead of insisting the use a product they are not familiar with.

We spray Awlgrip or Awlcraft at work. We have a very good painter (not me) Awlgrip is a polyester urethane and is the harder product but it is considered not repairable. Awlgrip was originally an aircraft paint so not really necessary to be repairable as they don't typically have fender benders. Because of this they developed Awlcraft which is a Acrylic urethane, the same chemistry as most automotive paints so is repairable and buffable. You can roll and tip Awlgrip but not Awlcraft so I would assume you can not successfully roll and tip the acrylic urethane car paints either. My son and I have painted a few personal boats with Nason Fulthane car paint and I believe it lasts just as well as any of the "marine paints" We typically use car paints because we like colors and most of the marine paints have a boring palette of colors whereas the choices in car paints is almost endless and you get to see your choice in large scale out in the wild instead of a tiny paint chip on a card. Also as long as you have the paint code you can buy touch up paint anywhere.

Steve.

[Jon Hacking]

As a counterpoint, we opted to re-gelcoat Ocelot in Phuket. Every paint job we saw had an orange-peel finish. OK, you could only really see it at 1-2m, but still. Make sure you look closely at some of your painter's work. Get up close, look at a reflection in the paint, then move your head side to side to see how much the reflection ripples.

Gelcoat takes less prep, but a LOT more finish work, as our guys used pretty much every grade of sandpaper between 320-1500 before they polished. We sprayed on ~1.4mm, & probably ended up closer to 1mm (0.040") but that's still much thicker than paint. The cost to us was supposed to be the same, but I suspect paint would have been cheaper. But paint also would have been much harder to repair. And we hope to get more life out of the gelcoat than paint.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Jon Hacking

As a counterpoint, we opted to re-gelcoat Ocelot in Phuket. Every paint job we saw had an orange-peel finish. OK, you could only really see it at 1-2m, but still. Make sure you look closely at some of your painter's work. Get up close, look at a reflection in the paint, then move your head side to side to see how much the reflection ripples.

Gelcoat takes less prep, but a LOT more finish work, as our guys used pretty much every grade of sandpaper between 320-1500 before they polished. We sprayed on ~1.4mm, & probably ended up closer to 1mm (0.040") but that's still much thicker than paint. The cost to us was supposed to be the same, but I suspect paint would have been cheaper. But paint also would have been much harder to repair. And we hope to get more life out of the gelcoat than paint.

Unless you pay big bucks to have your boat sprayed in a climate controlled shed by guys who do it all day long the results are going to be variable. The rule is you want as few coats as give you good coverage and acceptable thickness as every additional coat will add more more peel. I had my boat sprayed outside by a guy who paints planes and it turned out very well, particularly because it’s a dark color, and other painters have remarked on its quality and been surprised to was done outdoors, but my painter confided that we got lucky. Still not as good as an indoor job but plenty good enough.

Paint is in my opinion more *easily* repairable because you don’t run into the color matching ordeal that you have with gelcoat which starts fading as soon as it’s cured. That said a gelcoat professional can make repairs invisible but at a cost.

[ggray]

I painted the PT Skiff I built with Perfection. She is stored inside when not in use, so I have no knowledge of longevity.

But I rolled it w/o tipping using Russell Brown's technique, and except where I "stretched" the last bit of paint too far, it looks like it was sprayed.

?...By the way Rolling Perfection took me from very erratic results rolling and tipping to a star painter with gloss so shiny you use it to shave with. *Thanks...? D.P. ?rocketkayak?

*I have no financial interest in this company*

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by ggray

I painted the PT Skiff I built with Perfection. She is stored inside when not in use, so I have no knowledge of longevity.



But I rolled it w/o tipping using Russell Brown's technique, and except where I "stretched" the last bit of paint too far, it looks like it was sprayed.



?...By the way Rolling Perfection took me from very erratic results rolling and tipping to a star painter with gloss so shiny you use it to shave with. *Thanks...? D.P. ?rocketkayak?



*I have no financial interest in this company*

Every paint is different in terms of how it flows out and what works best for application. Temperature (ambient and surface) and humidity need to be factored in as well. It’s a good idea do do some tests to see what works best.

I recently refinished my helm pedestal base and used some Rustoleum “Topside” paint. In tests just using a brush worked really well with some practice. The result looks like glass, which shocked and pleased me to no end.

[clockwork orange]

Originally Posted by Jon Hacking

As a counterpoint, we opted to re-gelcoat Ocelot in Phuket. Every paint job we saw had an orange-peel finish. OK, you could only really see it at 1-2m, but still. Make sure you look closely at some of your painter's work. Get up close, look at a reflection in the paint, then move your head side to side to see how much the reflection ripples.

Gelcoat takes less prep, but a LOT more finish work, as our guys used pretty much every grade of sandpaper between 320-1500 before they polished. We sprayed on ~1.4mm, & probably ended up closer to 1mm (0.040") but that's still much thicker than paint. The cost to us was supposed to be the same, but I suspect paint would have been cheaper. But paint also would have been much harder to repair. And we hope to get more life out of the gelcoat than paint.

Gelcoat is meant as an IMC (in mold coating,) not a refinishing product and while it is of course doable with a lot of work it makes no sense to me to do so. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Why? It is a much more brittle product than paint so is prone to cracking if it is applied too thick, you see this on many boats even from high end builders, particularly in corners in the more complex deck molding where it pools by gravity in the mold, remember the deck molds are inverted or on their side as the gel is sprayed. Also the extra thickness is not a positive thing as it is very heavy, never a good thing, particularly on multihulls which have a lot of surface area and suffer more from being overweight, You are essentially robbing hundreds of pounds from your payload if you care at all about performance which of course most boat owners apparently don't.
As already pointed out by others, most paints that are acrylic urethane chemistry such as Awlcraft and most automotive paints are much easier to repair, they are formulated with easy repair being an important part of their chemistry because cars get in fender benders. As mentioned gelcoat is an IMC formulated to make manufacturing practical, nothing more. While it is reasonably easy to repair when it is fairly new it is harder to match than paint and as the gelcoat gets a few years old a repair that looks great when it leaves the shop is more likely to start to show down the road. When we do a paint repair we just call up our supplier who comes out with a special camera and shoots a section we have buffed out, plugs it into their computer and it spits out the paint code and they mix us a quart which most of the time (but not always) is a perfect match and with paint, stays that way over time. You can have paint matched in just about any size town with a body shop. Gelcoat matching is done the same way but we have to send a coupon away to have matched and even if it matches up front it rarely stays that way over time. For this reason we no longer touch up gelcoat with gelcoat, it is simply easier and more long lasting (read happy customer, less call backs) if we do the repairs with automotive paint.


Steve.

[Dan GB]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Every paint is different in terms of how it flows out and what works best for application. Temperature (ambient and surface) and humidity need to be factored in as well. It’s a good idea do do some tests to see what works best.

I recently refinished my helm pedestal base and used some Rustoleum “Topside” paint. In tests just using a brush worked really well with some practice. The result looks like glass, which shocked and pleased me to no end.

I went thru this exercise just recently. Been refitting in Fort Lauderdale and my boat is 1988 and was getting chalky and tired. Priced it up, vast range of prices, all higher than I expected, got stuck in indecision and ended up just doing the mast. Beautiful job and very shiny by a good not inexpensive crew. Went sailing in a tired looking boat with a lovely mast.
Left the boat in Freeport, Bahamas. When Katarina was incoming had her hauled. And got a local guy to roll and tip the entire thing in Awlgrip. So did the classic thing, people tell me is almost always a mistake, and went for cheap labour. It was so much cheaper than Fort Lauderdale 95 miles away that I couldn't say no really.
Done in the open air of a yard, a bit dusty, perfect from two (maybe five!) metres away. Up close not perfect but not shame inducing either. I would call it serviceable. I think the biggest difference for me is in the antislip areas - professional crews did a sample that is so much better than what I got in Bahamas.
At the moment I am delighted, but let's see in a few years.

[clockwork orange]

BTW, if you are unhappy with the orange peel with paint, if it can of course be fine sanded and buffed out just like you must do with gelcoat. Another point is that when gelcoat is used in a mold as it is meant to be used it comes out of the mold with a perfect finish or at least as good as the surface of the mold and it will keep it shine for a very long time but once you cut the surface as with using it in place of paint it does not keep its shine as long as the original finish, The same applies with paint so a good finish straight off the gun is going to keep its shine longer with less effort. This is why Awlgrip maintains its shine so well as you only wash and wax it but no abrasive compounds.


Steve.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

Another point is that when gelcoat is used in a mold as it is meant to be used it comes out of the mold with a perfect finish or at least as good as the surface of the mold and it will keep it shine for a very long time but once you cut the surface as with using it in place of paint it does not keep its shine as long as the original finish, The same applies with paint so a good finish straight off the gun is going to keep its shine longer with less effort. This is why Awlgrip maintains its shine so well as you only wash and wax it but no abrasive compounds.





Steve.

Gelcoat is only perfect where it hit the mold surface. Inside the “film” it’s (usually) filled with microscopic bubbles so keeping the shine after the original surface is degraded is virtually impossible. You have to keep it waxed from the outset, and then when it loses its shine it’s a never ending slog of compounding and waxing.

I redid my deck last year when the gelcoat was fully shot. The slick is Awlcraft, the nonskid is Awlgrip (for hardness) with particles in it. Love it. Low maintenance.

[clockwork orange]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Gelcoat is only perfect where it hit the mold surface. Inside the “film” it’s (usually) filled with microscopic bubbles so keeping the shine after the original surface is degraded is virtually impossible. You have to keep it waxed from the outset, and then when it loses its shine it’s a never ending slog of compounding and waxing.

I redid my deck last year when the gelcoat was fully shot. The slick is Awlcraft, the nonskid is Awlgrip (for hardness) with particles in it. Love it. Low maintenance.

Exactly the point I was trying to make, and one of the many reasons why I think it is a bad idea using gelcoat as a refinishing product. It is an in mold coating. You did it the right way, the awlcraft is repairable, the awlgrip is harder. I just redid my cabin from the deck non skid up with Quantum 99 and the non skid with Awlcraft. I used the quantum because you can get a nice job just rolling with a hot dog roll and no tipping and it is repairable which is important for me as im doing it in stages under a cover. I used the awlcraft because it was free and I used fine rubber particles instead of griptex so no need for the harder product. This on an old Gemini cat.
While we use awlgrip and awlcraft at work and I can buy it cheaper than the quantum, because I am doing it in stages awlgrip was not going to work and you can't roll awlcraft, I confirmed this with a call to their tech guys. Works fine rolling it for the non skid though.


Steve

[Zach]

I like gelcoat boats to own... as you can be reasonably assured that there hasn't been any major damage or repair unless the gel color match is perfect, in which case the repair work probably matches the expertise.



When you get into an old painted boat, you can have poor prep work under a new paint job that was just to get it ready to sell and have an Awlgrip job age in dog years. I'd rather buy a boat with a 6 year old Awlgrip job with dock bumps, than a 1 year old Awlgrip job that hasn't been out of the slip, unless you have in progress pictures of before and after and during.



Being the first one to paint a boat, and doing good prep work with good materials gives a long lasting job.



A boat painted in enamel and a few coats in between, then later on LPU can be something of a headache if you don't want blistered paint and dull spots as you have to take it back down to the gel to start over, and you get to find whatever filler repairs and issues that led to it being painted in the first place.