Peeled my bottom, what am I looking at now?

[JOHNMARDALL]

I recommend not going any deeper with the peeling - you risk destroying the integrity of the hull. Nothing you do is going to turn this back into a new boat, and the hull materials that have not been damaged by osmosis are good no matter what they're made of, so don't worry about the color of the filler. Clean out any blisters that are still there, let the hull dry, and then fill all the divots, dings, pinholes and ridges with West System resin with 410 filler, fortified with a little fumed silica to reduce sagging. The 410 putty is very easy to sand, which raw fiberglass and Bondo are not. Trying to fair it out before filling will drive you insane. Don't forget to wash any cured epoxy with water to remove the amine blush before you apply another layer of fairing. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good- this is an old boat and cannot be perfect. When everything's reasonably fair, coat it with the Interprotect barrier coat system in accordance with their recommendations. Use the two color system to make sure you're covering everything.
This is not theory, I've done it myself on two of my old boats, with good, long-lasting results.

Good luck
John Mardall
Vetus Maxwell Group.

[Wind River]

Originally Posted by minaret

Very clear what you are seeing is a previously done peel job and blister repair which failed. All the signs are there. Probably it was insufficiently dried.The redish filler is WEST with 407. Looks like alternating grey and white barrier coat, Interlux 2000, no gel. Make sure it gets really dry this time before coating. Meter readings are?


Any interest in selling your peeler when you finish?

Thanks so much for the input. I am not looking forward to peeling two times let alone three! I still don't have feeling back in the tip of my thumb from the dead mans switch on the peeler.

I am committed to this however and I will do what has to be done. Hopefully the peeling will go a lot easier after the filler has been removed. I noticed in some spots it went though like butter, others spots not so much. How do I know how many peels are enough? When any remnant of a blister is gone and all the filler is gone?

I have not taken any meter readings (I don't have one) but it's pretty obvious it is wet when you can actually see the moisture coming out of the surface. Within a few minutes after the cut with the peeler, I can see little wet spots develop on the surface in some areas that I can wipe off.

I don't plan on being back in the water for about a year and a half, so I figured that after the peeling I would let it sit through another Southern California summer to dry out before doing any more work on the bottom. If I did the vinylester treatment, is the 5 coats of Interlux 2000 still needed?


As far as the GelPlane goes, I may be interested in selling it as I hope to never need to do this again. I bought this one used and if I do decide to sell it I will give you first option to buy.

[Wind River]

Originally Posted by JOHNMARDALL

I recommend not going any deeper with the peeling - you risk destroying the integrity of the hull. Nothing you do is going to turn this back into a new boat, and the hull materials that have not been damaged by osmosis are good no matter what they're made of, so don't worry about the color of the filler. Clean out any blisters that are still there, let the hull dry, and then fill all the divots, dings, pinholes and ridges with West System resin with 410 filler, fortified with a little fumed silica to reduce sagging. The 410 putty is very easy to sand, which raw fiberglass and Bondo are not. Trying to fair it out before filling will drive you insane. Don't forget to wash any cured epoxy with water to remove the amine blush before you apply another layer of fairing. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good- this is an old boat and cannot be perfect. When everything's reasonably fair, coat it with the Interprotect barrier coat system in accordance with their recommendations. Use the two color system to make sure you're covering everything.
This is not theory, I've done it myself on two of my old boats, with good, long-lasting results.

Good luck
John Mardall
Vetus Maxwell Group.

Thanks John.
I believe that another peel may be needed as the blisters came in under the filler that is there. If I don't remove that filler am I not just setting myself up for repeating this down the line? I removed and old depth sounder unit from the hull and I will be filling in the hole. The hull measures 1/2" thick at that point. Is another peel still a concern with that thickness?

Filling the ridges the peeler left behind instead of sanding them fair? Hmmm..... I have not tried to sand any out yet so I didn't know how difficult it could be. I will keep this idea in mind. Thanks.

[minaret]

Quick lunch break post-

It’s quite common for boats with a dry chopper gun layup like this to be challenging to fully dry. Basically all the dry spots in the layup which should have got resin but didn’t are full of water. It’s a complex matrix, like a sponge, and you are trying to remove more than just water. This can sometimes take many months and loads of effort, for mediocre results. Sometimes the best way to get there quickly is peel off the skin coat of chop matt till you hit good laminate, obviously being careful to stop before hitting roving. The rest will already be dry or will dry quickly. Then replace the thickness of removed material in vinyl and CSM. I have done this hundreds of times. Gotta run, more later!

[Wind River]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

I agree with Minaret. My first thought after reading your OP was to ask if you were sure the boat hadnt been peeled before. When was your boat built?

Mine is a 1982.
It didn't even occur to me the boat might have been peeled before as I thought the white color I saw was gelcoat but apparently not. I have owned the boat for 5 -1/2 years. The previous owner made no mention he did any bottom work and he owned it for 10 years. I now know the daughter of the owner before last and she doesn't remember if her family had anything done or not, so likely this repair was done over 15-20 years ago

I assume you are peeling again because you have high moisture readings again. As I understand it, normal osmosis repairs just peel off the gelcoat & then recoat with epoxy. If you have uncovered significant fairing compound, maybe they had to go deeper into the laminate on your boat - as they did with mine.

I am peeling because I am my own worst enemy and just can't let the the words "Perfection is the enemy of good enough" resonate with me........ yet. My boat had blisters when I bought it and the surveyor told me not to worry about them. In the time I have owned her the blisters have gotten worse, but still not too bad compared to others I have seen. I have hauled the boat to my own place of business and it doesn't cost me to keep it here, so I thought I would peel the hull and let it dry while I was doing other work on the boat and solve this problem once and for all.
I hope to go cruising one day I don't want to spend that time doing work like this on my boat.

As I understand it - I'm a boatowner with bitter experience in this area (eventually came good) - it is essential to do what it takes to dry out the hull before commencing the rebuild of the hull. In my case that took peeling, more peeling, lots of steamcleaning, multiple Hotvacs, 2 shotblasts, then Bingo - it suddenly dried out. The moisture readings which had been stubbornly high suddenly dropped dramatically.

I was told that on my 1981 boat, the uncured Glycols were trapped in the hull & the boat would not dry out until they were removed, no matter how deep. My experience certainly bears that out.

Good luck.

Thanks for your experience. Nice to hear from someone who saw it through until the end and is happier for it!

[Wind River]

I ordered a Electrophysics GRP100 moisture meter to get some baseline numbers.
I should have the meter and some readings late next week.

Electrophysics Fiberglass Boat Inspection

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Wind River

I ordered a Electrophysics GRP100 moisture meter to get some baseline numbers.
I should have the meter and some readings late next week.

Electrophysics Fiberglass Boat Inspection

Take a look at Moisture Meter Mythology before using your meter.

[Wind River]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Take a look at Moisture Meter Mythology before using your meter.

I found and read that article before I bought the meter. I assume you are the author of this and I thank you for the time and dedication you put into it.

I did not purchase my meter for the purpose of knowing "how much" moisture is in my hull, I can tell there is moisture by looking at it, as I described earlier. The picture I have attached is one area that had the weeping I described. The little darker dots are these area. If you can zoom in like I can on my camera you can see there a tiny pockets /bubbles that are fill with this "liquid". Maybe this is not water at all or it is a combination of water and uncured resin or something else. It is not sticky like what came out of the blisters I popped.

Either way, I would like to use the meter to identify a difference between the time after peeling, and a year from now after another hot SoCal summer to help me in determining that my hull has dried to an extent enough to be reasonable certain no one will not have this problem again on this boat. I am hoping that peeling another layer will get me beyond this problem area and I can rebuild it the way Minaret suggested after a long dry time.

I would love to hear all thoughts on this as there is another thread started on whether or not someone should pass on buying a boat that has been peeled previously. This thread is mentioned there and I would love to be the case that shows some owners will go the extra mile to do what needs to be done and therefore a future buyer will see the value in it and not condem it as a problem.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...er-195631.html

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Wind River

I found and read that article before I bought the meter. I assume you are the author of this and I thank you for the time and dedication you put into it.

I did not purchase my meter for the purpose of knowing "how much" moisture is in my hull, I can tell there is moisture by looking at it, as I described earlier. The picture I have attached is one area that had the weeping I described. The little darker dots are these area. If you can zoom in like I can on my camera you can see there a tiny pockets /bubbles that are fill with this "liquid". Maybe this is not water at all or it is a combination of water and uncured resin or something else. It is not sticky like what came out of the blisters I popped.

Either way, I would like to use the meter to identify a difference between the time after peeling, and a year from now after another hot SoCal summer to help me in determining that my hull has dried to an extent enough to be reasonable certain no one will not have this problem again on this boat. I am hoping that peeling another layer will get me beyond this problem area and I can rebuild it the way Minaret suggested after a long dry time.

I would love to hear all thoughts on this as there is another thread started on whether or not someone should pass on buying a boat that has been peeled previously. This thread is mentioned there and I would love to be the case that shows some owners will go the extra mile to do what needs to be done and therefore a future buyer will see the value in it and not condem it as a problem.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...er-195631.html

Sounds like you know the score and are on the right track. Hope it goes well for you.

[macman4190]

Every fall after haul out, there would be a couple dozen small bumps in the hull, most of them dry. I would grind them out and smear in epoxy, not a smooth job, but that bump did not come back. But now I am in Florida and the boat will not be hauled for two years, so I wanted the bottom fixed before my big trip. The boatyard up north peeled the hull, and said the hull had been peeled before, but it still had moisture in it. So the boat was hauled in early September, November was a fantastic drying month, and then they moved it inside when the snow came. While drying outside, the hull was rinsed weekly. Six months later, When the entire hull showed moisture readings less than 10% (it started out around 30), they brought the boat into a heated building and went to work. All voids had been identified right after peeling - dark spots that weeped. Those were ground out and filled. The bottom was faired with filler to remove low spots. Then four coats of West system epoxy with barrier coat added were applied. Each one applied while the previous coat was still sticky so there was a chemical bond. After this cured, there was still more sanding, rinsing, and filler applied to get a smooth bottom. Then 12-15 mils of interprotect 2000e was applied. Followed by more sanding and rinsing. Then the bottom was finally ready for bottom paint. First coat black. Next two coats red.

[Tampabayfireman]

We had our bottom peeled on our 52’ Irwin Ketch In summer 2014. This was from years of past blister repairs and not wanting to keep just patching problems. We used a company down here called “Boat Savers”. After peeling took almost 3 months to dry enough and then was re-glassed with epoxy and 1708biaxil glass mat. After glassing and re fairing, 4 coats Interlux 2000 coating and 3 coats hard and 4 coat ablated paint. End result is a great bottom nearly 3/16 thick. And no gelcoat. Costly but worth it hands down. Have pics and Vids of work , and yes most certainly reglass. Now a lot of chatter epoxy vs vinyl. I agreed with company doing work that epoxy was best option

[Wind River]

So after almost 2 weeks of thinking about this I dove into the 2nd layer of peeling on my hull. My concern was, am I getting in over my head with the re-glassing that will be needed if I do another cut into the hull and what other problems am I likely to find that will make this blister job turn into more than I have the ambition to do. I figured that I really have no choice but to do this the right way.

As many on this forum do, I have a high regard for the advice given by professionals like Minaret that are willing to give their time and expertise to people like me. I am not discounting the advice of the other professionals that have chimed in on this, but after taking the plunge with my peeler into the hull for the second time, I can see that this was the "best" course of action.

The second cut into my hull was way easier than the first. The chopper gun layer was so soft and dry it practically exploded off the hull in a shreds. When coming to the corner of the hull (the bottom of the keel) the chopper gun layer came off in small chunks or looked like it was torn instead of cut by the planer. I could make wider cuts and move faster with the Gelplane, I assume because this layer is so soft. This layer of peeling is going much faster than the first and I have not even changed a blade on the peeler yet. I would have gone through at least 3 sets of double sided blades at this point on the first peel layer. It is amazing how hard bottom paint, barrier coat and faring material is compared to just fiberglass!

In the pictures it can be seen how just below this chopper gun layer is the black color that I had seen in some spots during the first peel. This seems to be what the first layer of roving is infused with. I have no idea what makes it this color but where I have cut through it the color goes back to a cream color I would have expected to see. There is still visible water coming out of the hull even after the dry chopper gun layer was removed. In the pictures it can be seen as the very black patches.

I was told not to cut this layer of roving but it was not possible in some areas and since I will be going back over it all with new glass is this really a problem if this layer is exposed? I like to know I have all the chopper gun layer removed and that problem is gone.

This will be well into the future and after a long summer of drying time, but I would like to hear opinions on the type and weight of cloth I should use for reglassing?

Is epoxy worth the extra expense or is vinylester as good in this application?

Is vacuum bagging necessary for the layup or can acceptable result be had with normal fiberglass layup procedures?

Is it best to do the faring of the the hull before the re-glassing or does it matter?

The chopper gun layer looks like it was about the thickness of the depth of the second cut. (.090"). How many layers of glass would be required to build this back to original thickness? I assume this is dependent on the weight of the cloth.

Thanks for all the help.

[Wind River]

Since it was late last night when I stopped peeling I didn't take a real close look at what I have now. This is what I saw this morning.

How big of a problem are the voids? I'm sure it is not an ideal situation but can they just be filled. Did I really get through all the chopper gun layer?

[Emmalina]

I would take out your through hulls before re-glassing though....Good luck with your project

[Fore and Aft]

To fill all the voids we would trowel on a thin layer of Cabosil (glue powder) mixed with epoxy and then glass straight over the top of it while wet. The glass was usually two layers of 450gm double bias and then peel ply. None of the boats I did ever reported back to me with more blisters.
Cheers