Placing tracks for a staysail

[Tillsbury]

Absolutely. You'll want to experiment with temporary positions that allow you to get all the range described above within your reach. The only trick is to make sure you're far enough forward such that when fully tightened down you have the lead low enough to get your most "forward" required position.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

Here's an example. The red sheet comes from the sail through the ring to the winch. The lower red line is the outhaul which runs from the deck, through the ring, down through another ring attached to the same point, and back to the cockpit, so it's got a 2:1 advantage. The blue line is the inhaul, which does the same thing but mounted inboard.

Pull both the control lines to lower the sheet lead (same as car forward on a track). Release both to raise it (same as car backwards). Pull one or other line to move the sheet lead inboard or outboard.

It's also possible to have these with 3:1 by starting the controls with a splice around the ring itself, which is stronger. But if you have a beefy enough ring you should be ok.

That is precisely how my jib sheet leads are rigged, except that mine are 3:1 (necessary on a 54' boat).



This is not the only way to do it -- the Figaro mini-transats (what I was using for inspiration when I first starting designing mine) have two control lines on each side, both of which pull the ring downward, just one more inboard and the other more outboard.



What you are showing, which is what I ended up with, has the down vector of force applied almost entirely by the outboard control line, with the blue line for tweaking the clew inboard.


That works well because you don't really need the clew inboard of there until you are rather hard on the wind. So the blue control line will be mostly not working.


The only think I might change, is I might try a block instead of LF Ring, for the sheet lead itself. There is quite a bit of friction there, and so it works best to slack the sheet before adjusting. This makes it harder to get it right the first try, and you often have to repeat.


If you use this control a lot, you might find that a faff.


And I DO use this control -- A LOT. I work this control practically every time I trim the jib sheet. If like me you grew up on boats with jib sheet leads on tracks which can be adjusted only by slacking the sheet, letting the jib luff, and crawling up the side deck , then you get used to leaving this control alone except when you just can't avoid it, so that you end up with only two or three settings -- high, or deep. The balance of tension between foot and leech is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, especially with a high aspect jib, and when you have an easy way to control it from the cockpit, you start to realize how important working that control is.


That's no complaint against my boat's designer -- for the bigger headsail, the standard 120% yankee, I have the jumbo Lewmar remote control tracks with triple purchase and their own jammers and winches. This also works quite well, but the twing system is better because you gain the inboard-outboard control.

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

If you have infinitely adjustable sheet lead position vertically and horizontally, you don't need it to be adjustable fore and aft. Fore and aft adjustment is just a compromise solution to give vertical adjustment. The sheet lead just needs to be forward enough that you can adjust it to the lowest position you'll ever need. Letting it off gives you height, which is the equivalent of moving a track aft. But you can also move it inboard and outboard, giving you the equivalent of two barber haulers built in. And the whole lot doesn't get in the way when you're not using the sail.

You are right, it is an interesting approach. I didn't think about such a setup when I installed my tracks.

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by GILow

Guys, great advice, and good to have it here for people searching, but in my case running the lines aft really is a nightmare, so I will have to stick to the track option, even though I concede it may be sub-optimal.

Still trying to reconcile waterman46 and Jim Cate's contradictory advice.

I don't see a contradiction, but maybe didn't understand what was meant by Jim's reference to fixed ange from centerline. In another post (not Jim's) I read about a 45 degree angle. That is far far too much. The idea is that as you move the car along the track you keep the sheeting angle from tack to clew about constant.

After further reflection I think you may want even a little less angle. Trimming sail in light winds you want foot and leach to have similar tension. But in high wind you want to ease the leach a little compared to the foot. To do this you can move the car aft on the track. But now there is more distance from track to clew, so the clew will move outboard. So don't overdo the track angle.

My tracks had to be place on the side decks. Some mentioned putting them on the coachroof. Can't imagine a deck or rig where that wouldn't create way too tight a sheeting angle. I designed my staysail to maximize available area so it just clears spreader and sheets inboard of shrouds and my boat needs a wide sheeting angle to keep it moving.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by waterman46

My tracks had to be place on the side decks. Some mentioned putting them on the coachroof. Can't imagine a deck or rig where that wouldn't create way too tight a sheeting angle. I designed my staysail to maximize available area so it just clears spreader and sheets inboard of shrouds and my boat needs a wide sheeting angle to keep it moving.

The Swan 51 has 3 tracks, outboard, inboard, and cabin top. The cabin top tracks could be used for the staysail and storm jib sheets, unless you were reaching with the staysail and wanted to open the slot in which case you could move to an outboard lead.

[Cheechako]

The problem is for going to weather the track needs to be very close in to centerline. On my 44 and 47 I would say it was maybe 16-18" off centerline. ? For anything else it needs to be out further. Thus the club foot staysail.
I always had to use a 4 part Barber Hauler rig to the toerail or somewhere outboard to adjust the staysail properly. Even if you put a traveler on deck up there it wouldn't be wide enough.... unless you have a flush deck? But an athwartship track or traveler in combo with lead tracks aft of that could work. The traveler to set the beam adjustment, and the aft sheet to set the angle. A block on the traveler with height adjustment.

I guess this wouldn't work unless you had a real wide flat deck. ?

[Shala]

great thread guys...a wealth of info just keeps flowing...and its nice to have a thread with no bickering and arguing that so many threads have these days...its a breath of fresh air...it really fills my staysail...thanks alot...kudos

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

The problem is for going to weather the track needs to be very close in to centerline. On my 44 and 47 I would say it was maybe 16-18" off centerline. ? For anything else it needs to be out further. Thus the club foot staysail.
I always had to use a 4 part Barber Hauler rig to the toerail or somewhere outboard to adjust the staysail properly. Even if you put a traveler on deck up there it wouldn't be wide enough.... unless you have a flush deck? But an athwartship track or traveler in combo with lead tracks aft of that could work. The traveler to set the beam adjustment, and the aft sheet to set the angle. A block on the traveler with height adjustment.

I guess this wouldn't work unless you had a real wide flat deck. ?

My staysail is rigged like that, just without the height adjustment.


It's self-tacking, so you need a barber hauler if you want the clew to be someplace other than over the end of the traveler.



For a staysail, it doesn't need to go all the way out to the toerails.


But if the staysail is NOT to be self-tacking, I don't know why you would go to the trouble and expense of rigging it that way. It has no advantage over a simple twing system, and will cost 10x as much to implement.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

...

I guess this wouldn't work unless you had a real wide flat deck. ?

I might be in luck there....

[GILow]

Originally Posted by waterman46

I don't see a contradiction, but maybe didn't understand what was meant by Jim's reference to fixed ange from centerline. In another post (not Jim's) I read about a 45 degree angle. That is far far too much. The idea is that as you move the car along the track you keep the sheeting angle from tack to clew about constant.

After further reflection I think you may want even a little less angle. Trimming sail in light winds you want foot and leach to have similar tension. But in high wind you want to ease the leach a little compared to the foot. To do this you can move the car aft on the track. But now there is more distance from track to clew, so the clew will move outboard. So don't overdo the track angle.

What you describe here is consistent with my recollection of playing around with the staysail a year or so back, before I replaced the deck. From memory, I ended up with a track that was at about a 20 degree angle to the centre-line of the boat, with the forward end inboard slightly and the aft end outboard.

I shall have to ask Jim to explain his thinking to see if I can work out what I am missing.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by waterman46

In another post (not Jim's) I read about a 45 degree angle. That is far far too much.

Yes, that was me having a brain-fart in post #9. I should have said 20 degrees.

[tenchiki]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I'd start by extending the LP line of the sail to the side deck and center the track around it.

That commonly heard but erroneous advice has caused more poorly-setting jib sails than almost any other. A closer to correct angle is to project from the center of the luff through the clew to the deck. To a first approximation, you need a force on the clew from the sheet that is proportional to the length of that side of the sail. Projecting the LP supplies less force alone the leech than the foot, which is the opposite of what you want. The difference between the 2 methods is small on a low-aspect (high-overlap) genoa (where the leech and foot are similar lengths), and very large on a high-aspect blade jib (where the foot is very short compared to the leech).
As you fall off the wind, moving the lead forward partially offsets the tendency of the head to fall off too much. So you would need a lot more

track forward than you might otherwise think you would need. Or a twing/barber-hauler.

[Sapphir3]

Glad to see some traffic on this topic. I have been considering a similar modification on my cutter to remove the boom and blocks from the deck in favor of a cleaner design. Between the outhaul, the sheet for the boom, and roller furling the cabin top is not usable for anything else.

Ideally, I would like a self tending system in which the outhaul and sheet are the same line. I have seen curved tracks on smaller sloops where the outhaul is the sheet and there is no boom. The curved track is designed such that the sail shape does not flatten as it swings to leeward. It is also self tending when tacking.

I am sure there is some efficiency loss with this type of arrangement, but clogging up the foredeck is not worth it IMHO.

Search out some smaller boats with self tending jibs and you may get some answers. Please post if you do.

Good luck to all.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Sapphir3

Glad to see some traffic on this topic. I have been considering a similar modification on my cutter to remove the boom and blocks from the deck in favor of a cleaner design. Between the outhaul, the sheet for the boom, and roller furling the cabin top is not usable for anything else.

Ideally, I would like a self tending system in which the outhaul and sheet are the same line. I have seen curved tracks on smaller sloops where the outhaul is the sheet and there is no boom. The curved track is designed such that the sail shape does not flatten as it swings to leeward. It is also self tending when tacking.

I am sure there is some efficiency loss with this type of arrangement, but clogging up the foredeck is not worth it IMHO.

Search out some smaller boats with self tending jibs and you may get some answers. Please post if you do.

Good luck to all.

Well, my boat has this system for the staysail. It's from Selden and it has a curved track.


It works more or less OK, but you have to understand that without any ability to change the sheet lead angle, your ability to optimize sail shape is severely limited. You will need a barber hauler if you care about sail shape, and/or a clew board with multiple alternative sheet attachment points.



A great plus of this system is that besides being self tacking, the controls are super simple -- just a single line -- and uncluttered. But once you start barber hauling the clew, this advantage goes away.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by GILow

Hi all,

My boat was originally fitted with a club foot boom on the staysail. I do not use it, it is horrible. Instead, I have been using a combination of blocks on the deckhouse and mast base to get a decent sail shape.

This is not a great solution either, so a while back I bought some tracks and blocks, now I would like to fit them.

With my deck layout, they can go anywhere.

So, is there a formula or simple method of determining the correct location for them? I wondered if there was something along the lines of measuring the sail foot length and then maybe multiplying by something else? Maybe a calculated angle from the clew?

I have some pencil marks from what felt right when I measured on a totally calm day, but I don’t entirely trust my judgment there.

Matt

Based on recommendations from Carol Hasse at Port Townsend Sails (WA),
I also removed the boom from my staysail but I had Port Townsend Riggers do the installation of new blocks for the control lines...no track is used. It is a great improvement and tacking is a breeze (no pun intended).

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH