Plumbing pump suggestions?

[knotnline]

This might work, maybe small scale though

https://panbo.com/a-dry-bilge-for-50/

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari

Backflow is not an issue and has not been for a long time now, as I mentioned most bilge pump switches as well as the Whale Gulper's "Intelligent Control" are programmed to continue pumping for a few seconds after they've emptied their compartments to deal specifically the issue of backfkow - and this not hard at all to program on off-the-shelf switches if I had to make this switch from scratch

As to WHY I want to do this, that's a separate thread but I am rebuilding my boat to ISAF - ORC Cat 0 standards with multiple transverse bulkheads and watertight compartments (in addition to glassed-in insulation below waterline effectively making her double-hulled below waterline) and anyway as a general matter IMHO any boat should have as many water tight compartment as it can & all the locker lids should be gasketed with latching mechanisms etc. etc.

Every centrifugal pump that I have had anything to do with ceases to pump when air enters the intake, regardless of how long it runs and a long discharge hose will, as has been mentioned, generously return its contents to the bilge when said pumps stops. Or that has been my experience anyway.

[Cyrus Safdari]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

That entire statement is self-defeating.
Do you anticipate massive flooding in a locker/cabinet/storage area?

Yes that's kinda the point of making watertight compartments in places like under the Vberth. That's why it is required for all these compartments to have drains too.

Long discharge runs are a bane of any centrifugal pump.

None of you have bothered to check the specs on the Whale Gulper.
If I can run the hose longer than that, that's fine.

Setting-up a bunch of drains with a multitude of "computer controls" to

You darn kids and your loud music, Get off my grass! LOL

This is a very simple switch, about as "computer controlled" as the switches in the better modern standard bilge pumps which are designed to stay on for a few additional seconds

This product already exist, it has existed for decades. I Just wandered if there's one with a centrifugal pump instead of the diaphram pump.

And when your centrifugal pump shuts off the entire contents of your "longer hose runs" just drains back thru the pump into the hoses from whence it came.

This is a problem with all bilge pumps; the Gulper IC has a switch that's programmed to run for an additional few seconds to deal with that issue, as a most modern bilge pump switches, and this is easy to do by any 5th grader with an home electronics set.

[Cyrus Safdari]

Originally Posted by knotnline

This might work, maybe small scale though

https://panbo.com/a-dry-bilge-for-50/

Thank you, I've seen this before but didn't have it in mind. I'll check the specs on hose run. It doesn't have to drain a lot of water fast, the point is not to keep up with a breached hull

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari

Backflow is not an issue and has not been for a long time now,

As to WHY I want to do this, that's a separate thread but I am rebuilding my boat to ISAF - ORC Cat 0 standards with multiple transverse bulkheads and watertight compartments (in addition to glassed-in insulation below waterline effectively making her double-hulled below waterline) and anyway as a general matter IMHO any boat should have as many water tight compartment as it can & all the locker lids should be gasketed with latching mechanisms etc. etc.

Backflow on centrifugal pumps is ALWAYS an issue.
You cannot change the physics of that.
If you want to truly divide the boat into a bunch of watertight compartments then perhaps you should study the plans of the Titanic, she had lots of watertight bulkheads.
You might want to start with something besides a Pearson 35 for your efforts.
Your going to need more than some drain hoses to a Whale pump if you rip the hull open on an iceberg.
With all the compartmentalization will there be room for people?
How about watertight doors?
Can the entire cabin sole be made watertight?
Build all the watertight compartments and put a separate pump in each one.
Make sure the electrical system can run all the pumps.
Get an engine driven Jabsco with a manual clutch, run its pick-up to the lowest point of the bilge.

[Cyrus Safdari]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

You can run a centrifugal pump for an hour after it's sucked up all the water, you'll still get backflow.

This would come as a surprise to manufacturers of bilge pump (which are generally centrifugal pumps) switches, such as the Whale BE9006 Electric Bilge Switch, which is designed with a 30-second cut-off delay specifically to deal with the problem of backflow.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari

Yes that's kinda the point of making watertight compartments in places like under the Vberth. That's why it is required for all these compartments to have drains too.




None of you have bothered to check the specs on the Whale Gulper.
If I can run the hose longer than that, that's fine.




You darn kids and your loud music, Get off my grass! LOL

This is a very simple switch, about as "computer controlled" as the switches in the better modern standard bilge pumps which are designed to stay on for a few additional seconds

This product already exist, it has existed for decades. I Just wandered if there's one with a centrifugal pump instead of the diaphram pump.




This is a problem with all bilge pumps; the Gulper IC has a switch that's programmed to run for an additional few seconds to deal with that issue, as a most modern bilge pump switches, and this is easy to do by any 5th grader with an home electronics set.

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari

This would come as a surprise to manufacturers of bilge pump (which are generally centrifugal pumps) switches, such as the Whale BE9006 Electric Bilge Switch, which is designed with a 30-second cut-off delay specifically to deal with the problem of backflow.

Is not the gulper a diaphragm pump??
Centrifugal pumps work really really well when submerged however don't when air enters the intake, regardless of what switch is incorporated in the system. Even this silly old 5th grader has that worked out.
However I guess your results may vary.

[Cyrus Safdari]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

Backflow on centrifugal pumps is ALWAYS an issue.

*Shrug*

This is also not a problem that is unique to me or my application it applies to all normal bilge pumps and the solution thus far has been switches that pump a few seconds longer & the flow switch is set to not react to just a little water and manufacturers make these switches with timer delays

If you want to truly divide the boat into a bunch of watertight compartments then perhaps you should study the plans of the Titanic, she had lots of watertight bulkheads.

You really shouldn't roll eyes at people who know what they're doing. Watertight bulkheads in sailing vessels is hardly a rare thing and some production boats come with several such as the Amel. Nor is building them hard for someone who knows how to do boatwork. They are required in some races.

You might want to start with something besides a Pearson 35 for your efforts.
Your going to need more than some drain hoses to a Whale pump if you rip the hull open on an iceberg.

I'm not sure who you're rolling eyes and winking at, but I'm taken. lol

And I don't know about you but when I do a total refit, I am not kidding around nor cutting corners or doing half-assed jobs.

How about watertight doors?

If by doors you mean the companionway, yes. If you mean the door to the head, or the door to the vberth, yes and yes. Watertight doors are not hard to make nor do they need to be built like in a submarine or tanker. Also mine are pocket doors that can slide into place before being latched tight, I am considering a cross beam too. it would be easy to add the

Can the entire cabin sole be made watertight?

Yes, already done. All the floorboards are gasketed and latched, the engine compartment is behind a watertight bulkhead with air intake that can be sealed, the battery compartment is also in its own watertight compartment that is above waterline and sealed. The anchor locker hatch to the v berth was sealed up. There are no hull penetrations in the main cabin, the head has a sealable watertight door, the transducer has a watertight box built around it, the cockpit lockers are watertight compartments with watertight lids etc etc
I am considering ways of passing the exhaust hose through a watertight bulkhead so as to separate the rudder post into its own watertight compartment too, apparently it doesn't need any special fittings if done right but this isn't a priority since the rudder well protected on my pearson

Don't get me started on the fire suppression system.

When I am done my Pearson 35 can be turned upside down, shaken around, sunk 3 feet underwater, and she will come up right side up with not a drop inside, and everything exactly where it was before.

Build all the watertight compartments and put a separate pump in each one.
Make sure the electrical system can run all the pumps.

Or connect them together with a pump that is already sold off the shelf for this very purpose of combining multiple drains? One pump is better than many

Get an engine driven Jabsco with a manual clutch, run its pick-up to the lowest point of the bilge.

I have a separate Honda mini trash pump ready to deploy

[rslifkin]

The Whale Gulper is a diaphragm pump, not centrifugal. It's just a single chamber diaphragm, not a multi-chamber one like a typical fresh water pressure pump.

The timer on a typical centrifugal bilge pump is to make sure it removes as much water as possible below the switch turn-off level, not to prevent backflow.

[Cyrus Safdari]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

The Whale Gulper is a diaphragm pump, not centrifugal. It's just a single chamber diaphragm, not a multi-chamber one like a typical fresh water pressure pump.

Correct. But I want a centrifugal one if there's one on the market which is what I was asking - - do you know of an equivalent to the Whale Gulper with higher capacity and longer hose runs? That's the question folks, lets stick to it

[Cyrus Safdari]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Is not the gulper a diaphragm pump??

I was referring to a separate product made by Whale, their bilge pump switch that has a built-in cutoff delay, and that's unrelated to the Gulper
Most better modern bilge pump switches have a delay nowdays not just Whale' I was using that as an example

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari

I was referring to a separate product made by Whale, their bilge pump switch that has a built-in cutoff delay, and that's unrelated to the Gulper
Most better modern bilge pump switches have a delay nowdays not just Whale' I was using that as an example

Understood, however the fact remains that a centrifugal bilge pump only pumps water, not air. As soon as air enters the suction of the pump it does not push any more water out of the discharge hose, regardless of how much longer it continues to run. The only method that one can use to prevent the contents of the discharge hose returning to the bilge at cessation of pumping is to install a non return valve, something I would never consider on a boat of mine.

[Bowdrie]

Cyrus, with all due respect, rslifkin is correct and Whale is FOS.
It doesn't matter about timers or microswitches or any of that BS, (it all fails when you need it most).
Whale has led you down the primrose path thinking that some timer will eliminate backflow.
We've had to wade thru multiple posts before you would actually explain what you want to do regarding ORC, or what specific compartments you wish to make watertight, (and it's still vague).
Truth be known that model Whale works much better as a baitwell pump.
Run all the hoses you want from wherever you wish.
Terminate the hoses in some kind of sump/tank, and use a giant Rule or two, (whatever, they will still backflow,) or use a BIG flexible impellor pump with a BIG strainer, IT WILL NOT BACK FLOW, but you must use level switches for control to prevent impellor failure.
The same kind of pump is on your engine for a raw water pump.
If you wish you can make a diverter manifold which will allow your engines raw water pump to de-water the boat in an emergency.
But that can have bad problems without a big strainer and constant monitoring of water levels, (burned out engine impellor).
You'll want an Edson "Gallon a stroke" manual too, (~$1.5K for bronze).

[Cyrus Safdari]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Understood, however the fact remains that a centrifugal bilge pump only pumps water, not air. As soon as air enters the suction of the pump it does not push any more water out of the discharge hose, regardless of how much longer it continues to run. The only method that one can use to prevent the contents of the discharge hose returning to the bilge at cessation of pumping is to install a non return valve, something I would never consider on a boat of mine.

Well that's the case for regular bilge pumps too, and the only way that air would hit the pump which is connected by a hose is when it is done draining that hose. So really this is not a constraint
Also, I can theoretically use a check valve since these are just small compartment drains not regular bilge pump drains

[Cyrus Safdari]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

Cyrus, with all due respect, rslifkin is correct and Whale is FOS.
It doesn't matter about timers or microswitches or any of that BS, (it all fails when you need it most).
Whale has led you down the primrose path thinking that some timer will eliminate backflow.
We've had to wade thru multiple posts before you would actually explain what you want to do regarding ORC, or what specific compartments you wish to make watertight, (and it's still vague).
Truth be known that model Whale works much better as a baitwell pump.
Run all the hoses you want from wherever you wish.
Terminate the hoses in some kind of sump/tank, and use a giant Rule or two, (whatever, they will still backflow,) or use a BIG flexible impellor pump with a BIG strainer, IT WILL NOT BACK FLOW, but you must use level switches for control to prevent impellor failure.
The same kind of pump is on your engine for a raw water pump.
If you wish you can make a diverter manifold which will allow your engines raw water pump to de-water the boat in an emergency.
But that can have bad problems without a big strainer and constant monitoring of water levels, (burned out engine impellor).
You'll want an Edson "Gallon a stroke" manual too, (~$1.5K for bronze).

Whale's pump is a diaphram pump so that's a separate issue

Whether a centifugal pump is sitting a sump or is connected to a hose intake makes no difference to the issue of backflow so if there is a proiblem I can use a checkvalve though I just may stick to using the Whale product at this point since apparently there is no centrifugal version


You think you're kidding about the $1.5k Edson bronze pump
but I did in fact consider it and decided against it because
wIth lithium batteries being so cheap nowdays the money for an Edson bronze pump can be better spent on a longer-lasting battery bank feeding the larger bilge pumps plus a secondary system like the Honda trash pump