Precautions for cordless power tool batteries?

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Given the BILLIONS of rechargeable batteries in use..................this topic seems massive paranoia

What absolute rubbish

I use Hitachi tools with post type batteries.

Just three weeks ago I was drilling a hole with about a 1/4 inch drill (virtually no load) when I noticed a wisp of smoke coming from the battery. I watch it for about 3 seconds and realised it was going to explode(?). I threw the battery into a plastic bucket, scrambled up the gangway and across the deck and doused it in sea water where it bubbled away. No doubt Helen would have been destroyed had I not been there.

As a result I refuse to leave rechargeable batteries on the yacht unattended. As I have 240V power inverter I am sure I would revert to corded tools if I was at sea.

I am just hoping there will be 18V Sodium ion batteries on the market shortly.

[sailorboy1]

How can some of you sleep knowing your house batteries are connected?

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

How can some of you sleep knowing your house batteries are connected?

Well I wouldn't sleep if they were L ion. But if they were Lifepo4 that would be a different matter

Are LiFePO4 batteries safe?
LiFePO4 are the safest type of lithium battery because they are not prone to overheating and even if they're punctured, they won't catch on fire. The cathode material is also non-hazardous and therefore it poses no environmental or negative health hazards.10 July 2023

I'd prefer a Sodium ion storage battery


Lithium-ion batteries caused more than 1,000 fires during the past year in Australia

12 Mar 2024 — In short: Authorities have combined to tell 7.30 more than 1,000 fires have been caused by lithium-ion batteries over the past year. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-...ding/103582110

[Foswick]

Coopec43 makes an important distinction. When I (and most people) refer to "lithium" batteries, I mean lithium ion (Li-Ion) and lithium polymer (LiPo). While the energy density of LiFePO4 is lower than Li-Ion and LiPo, it is safer by a pretty fair margin. So, in common reference "lithium" refers to Li-Ion and LiPo, whereas, when a person means LiFePO4, they generally don't lump that under the general label "lithium".

LiIon and LiPo are not inherently dangerous, but they are more susceptible the thermal runaway and are less tolerant of overcharging/overdischarging and manufacturing defects.

There are others like NCA and LTO that offer some distinct advantages (and disadvantages), but they are not commonly used - mostly due to cost and availability.

As was commented: I would not consider Li-Ion or LiPo for a house battery. (Well, not true, I did consider it for about 30 seconds, but came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth the risks.) I am not prone to overcautiousness, but the potential for rapid and uncontrolled failure of these batteries is high and more importantly, not easily predicted or mitigated. The batteries definitely have their uses (I use them extensively in EVs, for example). But, you just need to plan for catastrophic failure. Picking "reputable" brands and "reasonable" precautions only reduce the risks. These risks are not calculated risks because no matter what you do, you have no idea how likely your batteries are to fail.

If I were to use lithium for house batteries, I would choose LTO - by a long shot.

But, that's not what the original poster asked about. They asked about storing lithium power tool batteries on board. To that, I would say that I might store a LiFePO4 battery without much concern. I would not leave it on the tool or charging station unattended. I would put it in a container that was sure to keep the battery dry and prevent accidental shorts, but which did create a bomb enclosure. That is, the container should readily vent rapidly expanding gases and not be inherently flammable.

I would not keep any Li-Ion or LiPo battery on board larger than a small cell phone battery. And, if I left it on the boat regularly, I would put it in a fireproof container.

Again, this is not me being overly cautious - that is not my personality. This is me knowing about lithium batteries.

Another way to think about a lithium battery (Li-Ion/LiPo) is like a flare (or multiple flares) that could spontaneously ignite at any time - provoked or not. You don't get to know how likely they are to ignite, and you don't get to fully control the factors that increase/decrease the risk. You can try to buy reputable flares that aren't prone to spontaneous ignition, but from external inspection, you have no way of knowing.

The fact that most batteries don't ignite most of the time is actually part of the problem. We assume the risk is quite low. And, indeed it is fairly low.

But, it is backward thinking to worry about a propane leak resulting in a fire, but not to give similar respect to Li-Ion/LiPo batteries. At least with propane, you are mostly in control of the risk factors.

[SaylorMade]

Originally Posted by Foswick

I guess this is a good place to talk about what to do with a burning lithium battery.

It is important to note that most fire extinguishers that you are likely to have on board will have little effect. The best they will do is help save surrounding materials. They will not extinguish a lithium battery in thermal runaway. The battery fire is not "out" until all cells are completely discharged and the battery cannot restart the thermal runaway condition.

The best thing you can do is submerg the battery and keep it submerged. This seems counterintuitive, but it accelerates discharge but does not allow uncontrolled thermal runaway.

When talking about fires, and thermal runaway, it is not enough to say "Lithium batteries".
The different chemistries (LMC, LFP etc.) have vastly different properties in this regard.

[Foswick]

Originally Posted by SaylorMade

When talking about fires, and thermal runaway, it is not enough to say "Lithium batteries".
The different chemistries (LMC, LFP etc.) have vastly different properties in this regard.

Thermal runaway is fundamentally the same, regardless of chemistry. Some chemistries are more or less prone to thermal runaway, but the reaction and causes are the same.

There is some distinction when we start talking about whethere a Class D fire extinguisher is effect. For example, a Class D is not effective for Li-Ion battery fires.

Since lithium metal is reactive to water, some people are reluctant to use water to extinguish a lithium battery fire. And, it is fair to say that spraying water on such a fire would have different results, depending on battery chemistry and the condition of the batteries. But, the point of submerging in water is not to cut off oxygen. The purpose is to keep the temperature down and take energy out of the system.

[coopec43]

I have just been talking to the tradesman who is installing a new motor for the garage door and he says he is extremely careful with his L ion tools. "They are charged in the garage and taken off charge as soon as they are fully charged" and "I would not dream of leaving them on charge overnight"

The tools I use were given to me so I don't know their history. Consequently I have decided to store the batteries in a 20L bucket (with lid) outside the house.

Maybe Sodium ion tool batteries are on the horizon?

"Multiple companies are now producing rechargeable sodium-ion batteries. The batteries from Tiamat are being used in a commercial power tool .
https://physics.aps.org/articles/v17/73

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by coopec43

What absolute rubbish

I use Hitachi tools with post type batteries.

Just three weeks ago I was drilling a hole with about a 1/4 inch drill (virtually no load) when I noticed a wisp of smoke coming from the battery. I watch it for about 3 seconds and realised it was going to explode(?). I threw the battery into a plastic bucket, scrambled up the gangway and across the deck and doused it in sea water where it bubbled away. No doubt Helen would have been destroyed had I not been there.

As a result I refuse to leave rechargeable batteries on the yacht unattended. As I have 240V power inverter I am sure I would revert to corded tools if I was at sea.

I am just hoping there will be 18V Sodium ion batteries on the market shortly.

Hi, I have to ask, was the problem battery a genuine product or a flea bay aftermarket purchase?

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Hi, I have to ask, was the problem battery a genuine product or a flea bay aftermarket purchase?

Good question!

I've asked myself the same question but the set of tools/batteries were probably ten years old when I got them. There's nothing printed on the batteries which would indicate they are Hitachi batteries.

I have bought one non genuine battery on eBay but that gave up the ghost after about six months.

But when you can buy two batteries which are claimed to be genuine Hitachi for $97 why would you bother with fakes?

[JBP]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned fireproof bags to store your batteries in.

https://a.co/d/hOSIc4w

[ohgary]

Originally Posted by dannc

When you start smelling a funny smell, start looking for the source of that funny smell, and find a battery generating quite a bit of smoke with a melting battery case,.

With Lithium-ion batteries, the time from funny smell and all flames is often a few seconds. A damaged Lithium-ion battery will go into thermal melt down in seconds.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by ohgary

With Lithium-ion batteries, the time from funny smell and all flames is often a few seconds. A damaged Lithium-ion battery will go into thermal melt down in seconds.

That was my experience, it did look as though it was going to explode within seconds.

I guess I was in panic mode as I did consider heaving it up through the gangway. I'm glad I didn't as imagine it lobbing on the $500K launch in the adjoining berth?

[Foswick]

Originally Posted by coopec43

I'm glad I didn't as imagine it lobbing on the $500K launch in the adjoining berth?

Depends on the neighbor.

[Onthewater222]

Speaking of Hitachi, I’ve been a loyal user of them for work since they had the post type NIMH batteries and ever since they brought out the slide lithium batteries, I have to admit they cop a hiding on hot metal roofing all day every day, you could say an extreme environment for lithium but all this time and no problems whatsoever (knock on wood of course)
No roofers I know are taking any special precautions because their tools could burst into flames lol

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Good question!

I've asked myself the same question but the set of tools/batteries were probably ten years old when I got them. There's nothing printed on the batteries which would indicate they are Hitachi batteries.

I have bought one non genuine battery on eBay but that gave up the ghost after about six months.

But when you can buy two batteries which are claimed to be genuine Hitachi for $97 why would you bother with fakes?

Hey, that looks like a fleabay listing, no name branding and who knows where it is made. I now buy any powertool batteries from a business in Bomaderry, a town south of Sydney for not much more than the fleabay offerings, guaranteed and proven to just as good as the originals.. If memory serves me correctly I think they call themselves Battery Doctor.