Precautions for cordless power tool batteries?

[Statistical]

[QUOTE=coopec43;3906765]

Originally Posted by NorthCoastJoe

I have never had a battery problem in 25+ years of battery tool use. I leave the batteries on a conditioner/charger all the time.

25 years doesn't really mean anything given that until relatively recently most tools were NiMH which is a tech that is a lot more forgiving in terms of cell failure.

Teaching high school shop we took some worn out but not dead tool batteries out to play. We hit them with hammers, drove nails into them, torched them with an acetylene torch, and abused them every way a high school student could think of. Guess what, no fires, some smoke and heat. Maybe we didn't beat them up the right way. Or was the low state of charge the reason no fires.

Then they absolutely weren't lithium batteries. If they had been someone would likely have been seriously hurt and you sued.

https://youtu.be/Qzt9RZ0FQyM?si=D_m_WKaPg_epeFAL&t=271

That is kinda the perception problem. People go "I have been using battery powered tools for three or four decades". Sure but they weren't lithium powered tools you were using three decades ago.

AFAIK the first lithium power tool by a major brand was the 28 volt system by Milwaukee Tools in 2005. This however was a very expensive professional series tool. The more common 14.4V, and 18V systems adopted by various OEMs didn't happen until around 2008 and didn't completely displace NiMH tools until early 2010s.

They are reasonably safe just given the sheer number of them vs reported fires and explosions but they aren't as safe as you are making them out to be. Drilling into a pack or hitting it with a torch is a good way to get yourself injured or killed.

[roland stockham]

Have you verified the report of a boat fire being due to failure of a lithium tool battery? IE seen a fire officers report? Their is a lot of disinformation circulating that is hyping the dangers of lithium batteries.
Given that these tools are made for, and primarily used, in industries like construction I think any inherent problems would be well know by now. Just make sure they are stored dry and can't fly around!

[ashmun]

Excellent, informative, and accurate information posted by Foswick and others. Avoiding no name batteries (AND chargers!), having lithium fire bags (watch YouTube videos on which bags really work!), having fire blankets, and foam fire extinguishers (i.e., First Alert and others sold on line, major retailers, like Walmart, etc..

Note, some batteries types/chemistries pose more risk, which I’m sure Foswick and others can expand on. For example, my drone batteries have Operating Temperature of -10° to 40° C ( 14° to 104° F) but potential thermo runaway at 138° F). I’m in the Caribbean, so my drone batteries are kept in individual fire-proof battery bags which are stored with a remote temperature sender (temperature monitor and max temp alarm on my iPhone) inside a medium fire-proof battery bag, and inside a larger fire-proof battery bags (the last two bags are commonly sold as a pair). What few 18650 and 14500 batteries I have are kept in their heavy metal flashlights or in the fire-proof bags mentioned above. Batteries, as already mentioned in previous posts, are only charged when someone is present (aka never overnight) and using brand name, intelligent charges (like NiteCore).

I consider the price of fire-proof bags, quality chargers, fire blankets, and foam fire extinguishers to be inexpensive insurance (like a good heavy anchor) compared to alternatives, dealing with a major fire, losing my boat, and/or injury. If you think I’m exaggerating, watch some YouTube photos of small lithium batteries being over-charged or short-circuited for fire proof bag testing or BoatUS’s videos test of how quickly a boat is consumed by fire (

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0er...Q#action=share

and https://www.boatus.org/findings/55).

Good topic and fabulous responses. Thank you!

[Geoff Ferrell]

After reading about a boat lost to a cordless tool battery fire (go ahead, throw in a bit of salt) I started disconnecting my Ryobi lithium batteries and storing them inside the oven inside a magma pot/lid. Thinking this is an increment of insurance (just an increment). I am also careful when charging (on land, no inverter onboard) and generally use the battery a bit right after the charge to take it off "100%."



I can imagine that the Force Ten oven might not contain a worst-case scenario lithium meltdown...



But...


Geoff
SV Callae Jane

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by leecea

I searched and found a bunch of threads that mostly discussed the best tools or cordless versus corded but nothing specific about precautions people take with cordless tool batteries.

I just read an account of a boat that was lost when their cordless drill battery suffered damage from wave action and burnt the boat. I assume being jostled around or repeatedly banging against something was the issue.

I have read about fire resistant containers but the size of container needed to contain the fire from just one large cordless battery is surprising, and I keep more than one onboard. I have no place to put them, even if cost wasn't an issue.

I wonder about impact protection like a layer of camping pad foam to prevent impact damage. But I don't know if impact is the issue or just repeated shaking due to boat movement.

Does anyone have any insights into this or do they take precautions in how they store tool batteries?

I have used cordless power tools on my boat for over 30 years. I still have the first one I bought which is a 12v Skill drill. Now I have about 5 (limited by space available). They are tossed in a bin in the workshop, mostly kept dry although the space is often very wet. I charge them whenever they need it without regard to departures schedules, etc. They do get banged around as they are mostly not in any case or protection. I have never had any problem with any of my tools (mostly budget tools, not high end) other than batteries failing after several years. I carry a few extra batteries.

I think that this is not a major worry. Focus on sailing equipment and procedures. (however I would be very cautious about installing Lithium Batteries for the boat, that system needs careful engineering)

[GrowleyMonster]

Cordless tool batteries of course come with some risk. Corded tools also come with some risk.

Personally I prefer corded tools. My uncle still has my Grandpa's old Craftsman drill that he bought at the beginning of WW2 when he was building bombers. It is his daily driver, and has probably gone through a half dozen changes of bearings and brushes, at least, but it is still just as good today as it was in 1941. The cordless drill you buy today... will your grandkids even be able to BUY batteries that will fit it, 83 years from now? Things like that matter to me. I hATE it when a tool I have only owned for 20 years is USELESS because there is no battery available for it. Or some other planned obsolescence detail has rendered it nonfunctional. So I NEVER buy cordless. On my boat I rely on GFCI breakers on most AC circuits and always test the breaker if I will be using a power tool topside, and I don't regard that as ridiculously paranoid when on a boat surrounderd by salt or brackish water.

The only rechargeable batteries on my boat are GC-2 golf cart batteries, 6 of them, and a few 26650 flashlight batteries, and they are stored in a cookie tin with a handle made from an old throttle cable in case I have to toss it overboard. Simple precaution that is not a great hardship. Again, erring on the side of paranoia a little bit, maybe, but it gives me comfort to know that I can probably grab the handle with an oven mitt and fling it over the side if it is smoking and smelling funny.

With all the lithium batteries in use today, the number of fires that they cause is statistically pretty small. Otherwise they would have already been banned. It's just that a fire in a boat sometimes leaves you no place to run if it gets out of control, so most of us take extra precautions afloat that we might not bother with ashore.

My real problem with battery tools is not the safety aspect so much, as the durability and usability over years as technology changes.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Cordless tool batteries of course come with some risk. Corded tools also come with some risk.

Personally I prefer corded tools. My uncle still has my Grandpa's old Craftsman drill that he bought at the beginning of WW2 when he was building bombers. It is his daily driver, and has probably gone through a half dozen changes of bearings and brushes, at least, but it is still just as good today as it was in 1941. The cordless drill you buy today... will your grandkids even be able to BUY batteries that will fit it, 83 years from now? Things like that matter to me. I hATE it when a tool I have only owned for 20 years is USELESS because there is no battery available for it. Or some other planned obsolescence detail has rendered it nonfunctional. So I NEVER buy cordless. On my boat I rely on GFCI breakers on most AC circuits and always test the breaker if I will be using a power tool topside, and I don't regard that as ridiculously paranoid when on a boat surrounderd by salt or brackish water.

The only rechargeable batteries on my boat are GC-2 golf cart batteries, 6 of them, and a few 26650 flashlight batteries, and they are stored in a cookie tin with a handle made from an old throttle cable in case I have to toss it overboard. Simple precaution that is not a great hardship. Again, erring on the side of paranoia a little bit, maybe, but it gives me comfort to know that I can probably grab the handle with an oven mitt and fling it over the side if it is smoking and smelling funny.

With all the lithium batteries in use today, the number of fires that they cause is statistically pretty small. Otherwise they would have already been banned. It's just that a fire in a boat sometimes leaves you no place to run if it gets out of control, so most of us take extra precautions afloat that we might not bother with ashore.

My real problem with battery tools is not the safety aspect so much, as the durability and usability over years as technology changes.

The good news is tool companies have a vested interest in keeping stuff compatible. That is a different form of lock in. If someone has 3 or 4 DeWalt tools and 2 or 3 "20V Max" battery packs and he needs a rotary sander what do you think he is going to buy? A completely different brand with a completely different battery? No of course not. However that only works as long as there is an "20V Max" compatible sander. If Dewalt comes out with an incompatible "21V Super Max" line of products well he might as well jump ship. That should be good for a couple decades but you are right it is unlikely to last 80 years.

I like cordless on boats simply because it means no chance of cords or corded tools ending up in the water although I admit that may be an irrational fear. It also means I don't need inverter power (or shorepower) as long as I got a couple charged packs.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Statistical

I like cordless on boats simply because it means no chance of cords or corded tools ending up in the water although I admit that may be an irrational fear. It also means I don't need inverter power (or shorepower) as long as I got a couple charged packs.

How do you re-charge your packs?

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by coopec43

How do you re-charge your packs?

On a charger when I am around.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by NorthCoastJoe

I have never had a battery problem in 25+ years of battery tool use. I leave the batteries on a conditioner/charger all the time.

Teaching high school shop we took some worn out but not dead tool batteries out to play. We hit them with hammers, drove nails into them, torched them with an acetylene torch, and abused them every way a high school student could think of. Guess what, no fires, some smoke and heat. Maybe we didn't beat them up the right way. Or was the low state of charge the reason no fires.

That just demonstrates the luck of fools

(What were you trying to teach the kids? Maybe that L ion batteries are completely safe even when abused?)

[coopec43]

Quote:
Originally Posted by coopec43
How do you re-charge your packs?

Originally Posted by Statistical

On a charger when I am around.

Well I'm just wondering if you have $200 to spare whether this is an option? (Thinking theoretically)

Makita 194618-8 18V Automotive Car Charger Features:

• Batteries can be charged with 12/24V DC cigarette lighter socket in car, truck and boat
• Optimum charging system for slide-on battery
• Digital power display allows user to know the condition of the battery

Specifications:

• Required Wattage: 70W
• Digital Power Display
• Charge Times For 18V Batteries:
  • 3.0Ah- 60 Minutes
  • 4.0Ah- 90 Minutes
  • 5.0Ah- 110 Minutes
  • 6.0Ah- 130 Minutes
• Shipping Weight 1kg

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by JBP

I'm surprised no one has mentioned fireproof bags to store your batteries in.

https://a.co/d/hOSIc4w

And I'm surprised you believe they would work and actually contain the energy (=heat) expunged in a short period of time.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by hzcruiser

And I'm surprised you believe they would work and actually contain the energy (=heat) expunged in a short period of time.

Yeah they may still have some use in that it can make it easier to yeet your batteries overboard but no bag can contain a lithium battery fire.

Designed to withstand temperatures of up to 1000°F to minimize fire hazards; Note that beyond this threshold, the bag loses its 100% fireproof capability

Lithium batteries can burn at up 5000F. So the bag is simply buying you time. It still may be worthwhile. Initially the battery may only be hot and start smouldering but if it is too hot for you to get off the boat pretty soon it will be an open flame.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by hzcruiser

And I'm surprised you believe they would work and actually contain the energy (=heat) expunged in a short period of time.

Indeed. Sure, lithium batteries don't often self destruct, but when they do, if it becomes a full on volcanic meltdown, it can be spectacular. I would suggest a metal container with good handles that you can grab with oven mitts or hooked steel rods and hold long enough to jettison. I use a cookie tin, which honestly is a bit light for that, but all I have is a few 26650 flashlight batteries to contend with. A small galvanized trash can and lid, such as you might put fireplace ashes, would be great. Maybe a steel .50cal ammo box, if you cut some steel plate to line the bottom.

In a worst case scenario a thermal runaway puts out incredible heat, so no matter what, you only have possibly seconds after first sign of fire, to get it over the side. It's not a simple fire to fight. Your USCG approved dry chem shooter isn't going to do the trick, I don't think. Water just makes it worse. In theory you could just go out in the fresh air while it burns itself out, but so much concentrated heat could burn through the container and then your boat is afire. Bummer. Into the ocean with it! Sorry, marine environment, exigent circumstances.

A bag? Honestly I think if one isn't prompt at tossing it overboard, even a galvanized trash can might well burn through. I wouldn't want to put it to the test. In fact, burning zinc would add to all the other toxic gasses, now that I think of it.

Most consumer Lithium Ion or LiFeP04 batteries have internal BMS circuits. Just remember who is assembling those circuits... American or European craftsmen? Or uneducated Chinese peasants that migrated to the big city lured by $5/day jobs who made G.I. Joes yesterday, tennis shoes the day before, and hedge clippers the day before that? Talking about bottom of the barrel migrant informal labor with only minutes of training, desperate to earn enough money for a bowl of rice and a fish head. You see all the video clips of properly attired technicians in hair nets and white lab coats, in clean rooms, bent over microscopes, forceps in hand and oscilloscopes showing lots of curvy humpty traces, but the reality for most consumer products is far different. On the straight razor forums we used to joke about Gold Dollar straight razors being made by 11 year old peasant girls chained to their workbench for 19 hours a day, but the truth probably isn't so terribly far removed from that. So the built in BMS, which should be a perfect failsafe, isn't as reliable as it is designed to be. It might or might not prevent a runaway, or mitigate the event if it happens. Like you, I wouldn't trust any bag to contain it.

[Nicholson58]

There was last year in Yachting magazine an article on boat battery fires. This was exclusively written about super yachts. They concluded that there were likely 10X more fires than reported. Small fires handled by the crew were under reported. There were zero reported house bank fires, those being exclusively LiFePo. All battery fires were in the toys. Tools were not mentioned. Toys included:
Electric surfboards and foils
Dive scooters
E-bikes
Scooter
Segway

Missing from the list were electric outboards but superyachts seldom have anything that small. I have not heard of fires in these.

These toys were, are all made with high density type batteries known to be susceptible to fire and self immolation. These are also the devices known to have burned homes and apartments.

The conclusions regarding these battery chemistries:

Never store fully charged batteries
Only charge to 100% just prior to use.
Only charge on deck, in daylight by trained crew
Store batteries separately from the toy in a heavy metal box on deck. Thermal alarm included.

Since these battery fires mostly cannot be extinguished, I also suggest the metal storage box be designed to eject from the boat.

Battery packs for tools are comparatively tiny and consist of sets of individual very small cells. My Milwaukee 28 volt lithium batteries for example have (memory) four sets of four cells about 3/8” diameter X 1-1/4” long. Each set is isolated from the others by diodes and there is a BMS controlled charger managing each tiny bank. No wonder $150 per battery. If you acquire any lithium battery powered devices make sure you know the type. Any large *lithium battery needs a sophisticated charger with a BMS, (battery management system.)

In short, I don’t think you need to worry about tools. Buy good equipment and keep it dry.


We have big lithium banks from Blue Heron.

Notes from Hank George at Blue Heron battery re types of lithium batteries and fire risk.
*
*
In the press they lump all lithium batteries together.* There are really three broad types of lithium batteries, each with different risk factors.* All of them have a combustible electrolyte that is a petroleum derivative.* But, the volume of the electrolyte is small – about a quart in one of your batteries.* All of ours are lithium iron phosphate; none of ours are the more combustible and explosive lithium-cobalt, nor the nearly as combustible and explosive lithium manganese oxide.
*
LiFePO4 is a rechargeable battery chemistry, is the lowest risk factor lithium battery chemistry, and for that reason is the only chemistry we use.* It is hard to ignite, requires a very high temperature to cause vaporizing and release of its electrolyte (nearly 500F).* In a LiFePO4 battery, 3% of the weight of the battery is in the electrolyte – so only about 2 lbs in one of your 210Ah batteries, or 1 qt; and half that in one of our 105Ah batteries.* It is not a large volume of combustible material.* Note the recent letter (excerpt from the September 2022 letter from the President of the ABYC on the results of their testing on the flammability, ignitibility and explosion potential of LiFePO4 batteries).* In short they couldn’t get them to self-ignite or explode, and when placed in a fire, contributed only a small amount to the fuel in the fire.* Our batteries are subjected to tests to try to ignite them, such as firing a rod through the batteries, direct short circuits, etc., with no ignition or explosion.* ABYC confirmed the results of these qualifying tests.
*
Another lithium type battery is a high energy density version (a lot of power in a small package) that is a high fire and explosion risk, and that is the Lithium-Cobalt (LiCoO2), or lithium cobalt dioxide; a notable feature is the chemistry, with the oxygen in this case in a weak bond that is easily released at higher temperatures (unlike the strong bond of the oxygen in the Phosphate blend in LiFePO4).* If one had a run-away charger that overcharged the batteries, and did not have an active BMS to terminate the charge current, the battery would become overheated, the weakly bonded oxygen would be released and cause swelling of the pack, pushing battery plates together with resulting shrt circuit and sparks, igniting the electrolyte, and resulting in an explosion.* Li-Cobalt batteries are used widely in computers, cell phones, and any device desiring lots of power in a very small package.* Many of these have reached the news, such as fires in computers, cell phones, Hoverboards, FitBit watches, e-Bikes, Boeing’s Dreamliner 787, and the early Model-S Tesla’s.* Lab tests have confirmed these actual event scenarios, so the risk is well known and understood. *Occasionally some boat manufacturers pack a lot of LiCoO2 batteries into a boat to get it to plane or move at a relatively high speed under electric power.* A runaway charger not only starts a fire, it can be a large fire with the larger volume of electrolyte, and igniting the much larger volume (tons) of vinyl ester or polyester resins in the vessel hull.
*
The third type of lithium battery are several lithium chemistries that do not support recharging.* These are single use batteries used in small devices, like security systems, motion sensors, pacemakers, small remote controls.* They are called lithium-metal batteries or primary batteries. Often just a button-sized (small disc) battery.* If heated excessively, like thrown in a fire or consumed in a fire, they explode.* They also are susceptible to explosion from faulty charging devices, but because they are so small, it is not usually a large or all-consuming fire.

So our LiFePO4 batteries are not the chemistry that you hear about as a fire hazard.* But, because of their small electrolyte inventory they are treated as hazardous material.*

Ours are similar to Victron, Mastervolt, Relion, Battleborn, Renogy and Lithionics batteries from a chemistry standpoint – all are LiFePO4.* Our lithium batteries differ from many others in that ours, like Victron and Mastervolt, are made with longer-lasting prismatic cells that standup better to deep cycle use.* And different from most others we have Bluetooth access to battery information, have a more robust BMS monitoring 52 parameters, conduct extensive testing and cell balancing before delivery, and provide ready technical support.
*
Hope that helps.* I know more detailed than you may have wanted.* But, it gives you the background to have more confidence to make a summary response to someone who asks.
*
Best wishes!* --* Hank



White Paper 1(2) Public
Sales 2020-12-09
Comparison of Lithium-ion batteries
For rechargeable batteries, energy density, safety, charge and discharge performance, efficiency, life cycle, cost and maintenance issues are the points of interest when comparing different technologies. There are many types of lithium-ion batteries differed by their chemistries in active materials. Here, a brief comparison is summarized for some of the variants. Battery chemistries are identified in abbreviated letters, such as:
· Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) — LFP
· Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2) — NMC
· Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum (LiNiCoAlO2) — NCA
· Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2) — LMO
· Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LiCoO2) — LCO
LFP consists of phosphate in the cathode material. It offers higher thermal stability but moderate specific energy and a lower nominal voltage than some other types of Li-ion batteries. The key benefits are high current rating and long cycle life, as well as enhanced safety and tolerance if abused. The cost of LFP is lowest among different types of Li-ion batteries.
NMC consists of different portions of each of nickel, manganese and cobalt in the cathode material. The advantage of NMC are that its structure can be adapted to the purpose of use, for example to obtain high capacity or high specific power. In addition, it has higher energy density compared to other variants, such as LFP and LMO. However, its thermal stability is poor compared to LFP.
NCA is a development of lithium-nickel oxide, with added aluminum to increase stability. The specific energy density for NCA is similar or even higher than NMC. The battery is mostly used for high energy applications such as electric vehicles. Disadvantages are the safety and cost.
LMO consists manganese oxide in the cathode material. The structure of the cell provides low internal resistance, and thereby fast charging time, as well as thermal stability. The disadvantage of the LMO is that it has both a shorter lifespan and a shorter cycling life.
LCO consists of a cobalt oxide cathode. It offers a high specific energy. The drawback of LCO is a relatively short life span, low thermal stability and limited specific power.
Print date: 2020-12-09 Template: 403FIAR0101 C.01

White Paper 2(2) Public
Sales 2020-12-09
There are some other types of Li-ion batteries not mentioned here, such as Lithium Titanate (LTO) and Li-polymer batteries. The Li-ion battery technology is continuously developed for achieving higher specific energy and specific power, such as lithium-metal and solid state lithium batteries.
Some main features of different Li-ion battery technologies are compared in figure 1. The energy density for different types of batteries are also illustrated.
Figure 1. Snapshot and energy density for different types of batteries.
Currently, the most common Li-ion batteries in telecom applications are LFP, NMC and NCA. Some of their characteristics are summarized in the following table. Lead-acid is also compared since it’s the conventional technology in telecom applications today.
Wh/kg
300 250 200 150 100
50 0
Energy density comparison
Lead-acid
LFP LMO
LCO NMC NCA